the adoptive parents nurtured nature

'xactly.

I like that idea much better. Thanks, Jon. Like Vonnie, I'd always kind of viewed that episode as presenting a rather unambiguous look, in contrast to Veronica's season-long plight of what it would to mean to her if Keith wasn't her real father.

What P-C said. Mac's biological parents' are not only monied, they were cultured, and Mac had all these longings for the High Art and felt alienated by her adopted parents who are more like of monster-truck-rally type people. And Madison, despite being brought up surrounded by books and trips to Europe and so forth, turned out to be a mean, declassé bitch.

I think the message was softened somewhat by the fact that Mac's adopted parents were good people and loved their daughter, even though they didn't understand her, but the whole thing still bugged me. It smacked too much of the romance novel trope of "oh, our heroine/hero was brought up in squalor but still had refined taste and purity of spirits because he/she was actually a son/daughter of an aristocrat, left on the doorstep of the blacksmith as a baby!"

And Madison, despite being brought up surrounded by books and trips to Europe and so forth, turned out to be a mean, declassé bitch.

She was a bitca, but she wasn't a fan of monster-truck-rallys. In fact, she probably would have been less of a bitca had she been brought up by her biological parents, since I think her money played a large role in her bitca-ness.

I think her money played a large role in her bitca-ness.

I agree. I can't imagine Madison being that much of a bitch had she grown up in Mac's household.

That episode wins points for an awesome ending, though, with that great 46bliss song.

with that great 46bliss song.

What got me about that ending wasn't that song, but the way that Mac is part of her adoptive family, even with some contrary interests. Because, really, every family has a wide range of interests, and it's entirely possible that she'd have been slightly out of step with her biological parents as well.

I loved the very end, where the biological mother entirely wimps out of making the statement, and Mac goes with her cheerful, supportive, mellow and fun adoptive family. It's far more believable to me, frankly.

So shiny!

I have nothing of importance to contribute at the moment, but I just wanted to express my pleasure at having someplace to talk about the show with people whose opinions I respect and admire.

this thread makes me so excited. wheeee!!

Well, I think Rob Thomas has basically said in some interview or another that it's either Duncan or Logan at the door. Because otherwise the fans would feel "betrayed" - though, gotta say, I read that and actually... felt betrayed.

have we learned nothing from the Buffy writers and their lying ways?

personally, i hope it's Wallace. i used to hope it was Logan, but i never really believed it would be based solely on Veronica's reaction to whoever it was.

Get us started?

Had to take a nap.

Also, need to find what I wrote in comments to someone when I'd only seen through 1x11.

The gist, however, is that you don't have a lot of strong female characters in addition to Veronica, and even most of the sympathetic ones lack agency. They're either bitches or victims or both.

Mac is tricky, because she's sympathetic, but her actions kind of not. As much as I like her, the purity test thing makes me kind of twitchy. No, a lot twitchy. Neptune needs an ethics teacher.

In addition, while I'm all, Yay! Keith's a good Daddy!, the finale leaves me cold in a lot of respects because suddenly, even Veronica loses her agency and falls in need of rescue. She gets damseled and along comes daddy. This does not please, when your gender issues alerts are ringing.

I mainlined the show. Watched it all in two separate two day marathons, so it's like when you gorge on a writer and their writerly kinks start to blur into one sort of master story. Things that may not have registered over the course of a full year's viewing really stood out.

Is Keith a good father?

I want to say no, because of what he lets Veronica get away with, but the show is set in such a weird reality, it's hard to say.