You are bringing up a chicken-and-egg argument. Is it shameful to have an abortion or do you feel shame because you had? doesn't matter if at the end of the day the net result is shame. Which it will be, I think, because the abortion part is only the ultimate shame, not the only piece.

No, I meant before that. It's when people are ashamed of the pregnancy. That is to say, there are some people who abort for that reason--they can't bear the thought of telling their families they are pregnant. Remove the shame, and some of them wouldn't choose to abort. They might not choose to parent. They might give the child in adoption, but they wouldn't abort.

I won't legislate your family if you won't legislate mine.

But see, the pro-choice advocates, whose primary cause I do support, are trying to legislate my family, Kat. They are trying to take away my right to parent my child during what may arguably be one of the most volitile moments of that time of her life during which she is my responsibility, even though I wouldn't throw her out, or force her to carry to term, or force her to abort, or force her into marriage, or abuse her. That's my whole issue. People, in the name of choice, are taking away some of my choices, and leaving some children with a false sense that they can't go to their families for help. Again, I think there does need to be a safety net for kids who actually can't.

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Nobody's telling your kid NOT to tell you anything, Cindy.

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But see, the pro-choice advocates, whose primary cause I do support, are trying to legislate my family, Kat.

But the people who want parental notification are also trying to legislate people's families.

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Nobody's telling your kid NOT to tell you anything, Cindy.

MWAH to you Jesse. That's EXACLTY what I was thinking. If you feel that you have open avenues and the your child would be open to not only you knowing and your input, then don't you have faith that they will tell you?

And if they have to be forced by law to do so, then don't you think that is a problem too? That it foreshadows what will happen (as allyson aptly pointed out) if they are forced to?

And people in the name of parental rights are trying to take away the choices of their girl.

I guess I'm just more pro-girl than pro-parent. For all of the reasons Allyson, Sue, Jesse said.

Frankly, you wouldn't throw her out, etc. etc. But that's you, in your family. To map that to every other family, I think, is impossible naive and terribly dangerous. Especially given how many people here, some of whom have had abortions, have stated, repeatedly why they think mandatory consent/informing is wrong.

But it's all moot, right? This entire argument. We can argue endlessly and never come to a resolution.

So, with that, Cindy, I'm opting to disengage. Not because I agree with you nor becuase I think I am wrong, but because I don't have the wherewithal to continue.

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But they aren't, Cindy. They aren't forcing her to CONSULT you, but she isn't forced to consult you on getting pregnant or being bulimic or shaving her head or getting a tattoo or smoking pot or a million other choices which face a person growing up. Some of those choices a teenager will voluntarily discuss with their parents, some they never will. I know from teaching that ALL kids have internalized their parents by the time they are a teen, so their decisions are informed by you even if you are not present. They probably won't check with you on when is the best time to have sex, but they will use values you have taught them to make that decision.

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Jesse, upthread you mentioned state mandated reporter. Given that I am one, I would NEVER think to report statutory rape. I know I need to report abuse, but I don't know where statutory rape is (if it is considered abuse or not).

Oddly, I also am not mandated to report self-mutilation, like cutting.

And I don't. I do let the parents know (if I think I can) and I let the school psychologist and the school social worker know, but I don't report it as abuse to the state.

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But Robin, because your mother was an adult and had more resources to handle her situation is precisely why she was capable of deciding to not to tell her mother.

Nobody's telling your kid NOT to tell you anything, Cindy.

No, but when doctors are allowed to operate on a child without notifying the parent, they are contributing to her unhealthy, but fairly normal inclination that this is something she should keep a secret. I want to be told even, and maybe even especially, if she doesn't want me to know. That's *part* of the problem, and maybe it would be my fault, and I'd need to address it.

Even in a loving, open family, it's hard for a 16 year old to admit not being perfect sometimes.

Exactly. And the fight against parental notification reinforces that notion, and sometimes not for the best. You know who else helps kids keep secrets that they don't want to upset their parents with? Child molesters.

But the people who want parental notification are also trying to legislate people's families.

I see it as them trying to protect the right a parent has to fulfill his responsiblity to his child.

If someone here wanted to argue the age of consent for sex, abortion, birth control, and marriage should be changed, because, as Sue mentions, children slowly grow into control of their lives, I wouldn't be arguing that (well, age dependent) in the same way.

But during that period in which my children are my responsibility, I do get some say (or should, that is) and should get to know when something so big happens to my child, whether my child wants me to know, or not. Because frankly, barring simultaneous failure of birth control pills and condoms, the odds are, the kids judgment wasn't stellar, if she conceived, in the first place, when she didn't want to, and with someone else who also didn't want a child.

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They are trying to take away my right to parent my child

No, they aren't. They're trying to give your child the right that every other American, regardless of age, is meant to have under the Constitution -- the right to privacy. It's not about taking anything away from the parents, and frankly, abortion is about the pregnant woman, not her family.

People, in the name of choice, are taking away some of my choices, and leaving some children with a false sense that they can't go to their families for help.

But a law that doesn't require parental notification isn't a law that forbids the girl to tell her parents anything. She can tell them if she wants, but such a law would mean she isn't required to.

If a girl having an abortion is a member of a supportive family, then wouldn't they have raised her up in such a way that she would know she could go to them? Then the law that doesn't require notification isn't impinging on any parental rights, because the child is going to be open and honest anyway.

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Given that I am one, I would NEVER think to report statutory rape. I know I need to report abuse, but I don't know where statutory rape is.

I think I was using it as a reason why the girl raped by her stepfather isn't left in the dark. If she tells her medical provider, they have to report that.

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Here, make this big decision all by yourself

She made the decision to have sex all by herself.

And ultimately, your kid is now a mother, making a decision about her own child (whether or not to give birth to it), and your rights to know or do anything about her child are nil. You're just a potential grandparent, and as such, have no rights or say over the fetus.

If you are informed before, you can prevent her from exercising her right.

If you want your child to inform you, and wouldn't stop her, then you can talk to your kid about that, and hope it sticks, and she does tell you.

She has a right to decide whether or not she's going to become a mother, without your consent, approval, or knowledge. All you can do is arm her with enough knowledge and love before she hits the age where she can become pregnant, and continue to do so for as long as you both live.

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