Timelies all!

Meh, Stupid headaches. At least the weird blurry spots before my eyes are gone.

I dunno, this entire argument has made me think, "if they were gonna call my dad, I'd try the coathanger."

And really? My parents loved me and wouldn't have beaten me or any of the above. But bless them, I wouldn't ever tell them if I had needed an abortion and had one.

But I would have definately tried to self-administer.

I don't think you have ownership of your children's bodies.

I'm totally against parental notification. And I think this is case for so many reasons.

I have a thousand medical things now that I don't inform my parents about. Sure, I'm an adult, but I was even more private as a kid. And if I had been pregnant and needed an abortion and had to tell my parents, I would have drunk myself into oblivion and done any other old wives tale to try to abort the pregnancy.

And honestly, I have great parents whom I love tremendously. But as a rule we don't discuss stuff like that and to be forced to would have been so reprehensible as a teen that I would have done anything possible to avoid it.

Cindy, I'm glad you are the parent you. I think your moral views are admirable. But they aren't mine and they certainly weren't my family's then and they aren't my family's moral views now.

eta of course Allyson says it much more concisely than I do!

Allyson, you have responsibility for their well-being, which is bigger than any ownership issue ever could be.

Do you think any of that try-the-coathanger feeling comes from the fact that so many people do keep it secret? What if there were a change in attitude? I think this "Keep it secret" attitude perpetuates the shame. We treat it as if it is something that even supportive families shouldn't find out. That seems pathologically wrong, to me. You are 16, hormonal, scared, broke, uneducated, and the wonder dick has left for greener pastures. Here, make this big decision all by yourself, and by gum, don't tell the people who love you, and might help you the most. Our society is so sick.

You are bringing up a chicken-and-egg argument. Is it shameful to have an abortion or do you feel shame because you had? doesn't matter if at the end of the day the net result is shame. Which it will be, I think, because the abortion part is only the ultimate shame, not the only piece.

I guess, Cindy, we'll just disagree on this point. I won't legislate your family if you won't legislate mine.

I don't think you have ownership of your children's bodies.

This rings true with me. Also, I think you slowly lose ownership of your children's lives. At some point, they become their own individuals, capable of making decisions, making friends, having sex, screwing up, getting in trouble, learning or not learning from the experience. At some point, no matter the age, they are not the parent's to control, and a parent can only hope that advice is taken. Where that line is for each person is impossible to delineate, and impossible to codify, and I think there has to be some flexibility in each case for that line to move.

I'm not sure about medical consent, but I think in Canada, certain other rights consider the rights of the individual regardless of age. I know with information access and consent to release information, there are times when at 16 and older, consent to student records lies with the child. In FOI training, it was suggested (though it's not in law) that after the age of 12, consent to access or release records should come from both the minor and his/her parent.

Also, I think you slowly lose ownership of your children's lives. At some point, they become their own individuals, capable of making decisions, making friends, having sex, screwing up, getting in trouble, learning or not learning from the experience. At some point, no matter the age, they are not the parent's to control, and a parent can only hope that advice is taken. Where that line is for each person is impossible to delineate, and impossible to codify, and I think there has to be some flexibility in each case for that line to move.

Sue, this is beautifully put. I just finished reading My Sister's Keeper and sort of deals with similar issues about self-determination of one's body from the opposite end of the equation (13-year-old girl's sister has leukemia and she has been "forced" to donate a variety of things including marrow... now she's being told to donate a kidney against her will and she wants medical emancipation from her parents.) One line that was really gorgeous was something about children not being given to us, merely being on loan.

In a lot of cases, though, even though your parents love you, they WON'T help you the most. My mother had a terrible time conceiving and she stopped telling her mother, whom she ADORED, after three miscarriages any time she got pregnant, only because she just couldn't deal with her mother's panic about it. And sge was an adult at the time with her own home and many more resources than a teen.

We treat it as if it is something that even supportive families shouldn't find out.

Here's why, for me: It's a fuck-up. I am not a person who fucks up, especially to my parents. ESPECIALLY in high school.

Coming from a somewhat similar place: I had a friend in high school who skipped most of one quarter, I think because he was depressed. He never told his parents. He would get up in the morning and leave the house, and then go back home. He hid his report card. If they knew he was having issues, his parents would have helped him, but he still never told them. He was a "good kid." He was going to figure it out on his own.

Even in a loving, open family, it's hard for a 16 year old to admit not being perfect sometimes.

Damn. That's so me in high school. Though not depression. Just not being able to be wrong or to ask for help.

It's why I didn't learn to drive until I left home.