I don't think you're wrong. But - you're an adult, making a rational argument. There are kids out there who will feel that anything is better than telling their parents. And that's not just young women whose parents are or are likely to be abusive.

But that's largely my point. That feeling is strong enough in a kid, even when, for some kids (like all my friends who aborted) it is baseless. I don't need laws and medical personnel contributing to my teen's natural inclination to be secretive, even when it is not in her best interest to be.

Like others have said, I don't have kids, so I hesitate to speak as if I know all the ins and outs. But I believe that I would want my daughter to tell me, I would hope that I had raised my daughter to feel that she could, and at the end of the day, I would want her to have access to legitimate, responsible medical providers if she felt she couldn't, whether that feeling was based in reality or not.

That I understand. And yeah, given my druthers of a kid going back alley to avoid telling me (even if she's delusional for thinking she can't), and going behind my back but above board, I would pick behind my back but above board also, except for the fact that women sometimes die from post-op complications resulting from legal, medical abortions. And how likely is a kid who is too scared to tell her folks she is pregnant--one who has then had her inclination toward secrecy reinforced by laws "protecting" her from her non-abusive parents, and docs who've aided her in her secrecy, as if there were something to fear when there is not*, going to get up the guts to tell mother she is bleeding more than she thinks is normal, or that there might be a reason for her fever, besides a virus?

*from non-abusive parents

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That age of consent thing made me curious. 16 is age of consent for boys adn girls together, but gay sex--according to that website--is illegal. I'm not sure if that's been repealed, but if not, I know a lot of criminals.

Anyway, I became curious about age of marriage. According to one website, a boy and girl can get married with parental consent at age 14. In 1999 a bill was proposed to raise that to 16, but was defeated. ONe of the arguments against the bill was that it would "prevent a young man from doing the right thing by his girlfriend if necessary." Even though they'd have been comitting a crime by having sex.

Oh, and if the 14-year-old has been married before, they don't need parental consent.

Edit: the above applies to Utah.

2nd edit: [link] the website listing marriage age

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Oh, and if the 14-year-old has been married before, they don't need parental consent.

Okay, that kind of cracks me up.

ETA: Many states did (I think some still do?) have different age of consent for same-sex relationships.

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I wonder where that put my 15 year old grandmother and her 25 year old groom. Wait, that was in Kentucky. Nevermind.

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Cindy, if you're talking about being informed, legally, but not consent, is it that you would want to be notified after, or before?

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We have to draw a line somewhere. Draw it at 17, or 16, or 18, it doesn't matter.

Then I think it should fall along the same lines as the age of consent.

Bless, you, Cindy. As a parent, I know exactly where you're coming from. However, in my own experience, there wasn't a SINGLE thing my parents could have done to make my situation better. Their knowing would have not only complicated it, it would have been MUCH, MUCH worse. I was dealing with a guy who told me, when I told him, "Uh...I really don't have time in my life for a girlfriend right now." Working 12 hour shifts at a factory to try to save enough money for school and worrying about leaving for college in less than a month. The thought of adding to that a huge blow up with my parents (and the possibility that they wouldn't have helped me financially with school), I chose the least amount of disruption I could.

As much as I hope my relationship with my own children is different, I'll choose their freedom to make that decision independently from me--with or without my knowledge, if need be.

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I just wanna hold Cindy and Wolfram tightly. If all parents were like y'all, and all the other Buffista parents, this whole conversation would not even need to happen.

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wrod.

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We have to draw a line somewhere. Draw it at 17, or 16, or 18, it doesn't matter. What matters is that there be a certain age where the state treats you as an adult for this kind of decision, and conversely, an age where you are still a child and your parents need to be involved.

Then I think it should fall along the same lines as the age of consent.

The line drawing should probably be more consistent on the age for all of these things: sex; birth control; medical care; marriage. I'd argue in favor of that. I also suspect I would have a different reaction to finding out my 17 year old aborted without my knowledge than that my 13 year old did.

Cindy, if you're talking about being informed, legally, but not consent, is it that you would want to be notified after, or before?

Allyson, I think before. I feel this way for personal reasons as well as based on any principle. I want to make sure she'd get the best care. I would want to make sure she was doing what she really wanted to do, and not making a decision solely based on how desperate she felt. I would want her to know I would support and love her, regardless of what she decided. I think the secrecy adds to the panic that's already built into the situation.

Cashmere, I know everyone's situation is different. Yours is personal to you, and you made the decision you needed to make. Part of the reason I feel the way I do is because I know for a couple of my friends, they aborted because they couldn't bring themselves tell their parents. They didn't want to disappoint them. I had another friend who aborted, and later in life was infertile. I wonder if she'd had more follow up care, which her parents would have seen to, if she could have avoided that.

My best friend actually went for an abortion, and couldn't go through with it. She got up off the table before the procedure began. She still didn't tell her parents she was pregnant until weeks later, when she was bleeding, and thought she was losing the baby. Actually, even then, she didn't tell her parents. Her brothers did. Her parents took her to the hospital, got her medical care. They asked her what she wanted to do, and when she decided to keep the baby, they made sure she made her pre-natal appointments. And she and the baby lived with them until she was ready to move out, and they were kind and supportive to the baby's father, as well. When my friend was ready to move out (when the baby was about two), her parents helped her with her groceries and bills as they were able, and babysat all the time. These were the people she couldn't make herself come clean with. I don't think they even ever freaked out, once.

I think there should be safety nets for girls who really can't tell. I don't think it should be at the expense of the families that aren't abusive. I think the gov't, by allowing non-abusive families to be kept in the dark, contributes to this feeling that there is a need for secrecy, and indirectly to the feelings of shame.

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Timelies all!

Meh, Stupid headaches. At least the weird blurry spots before my eyes are gone.

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