I just wanna hold Cindy and Wolfram tightly. If all parents were like y'all, and all the other Buffista parents, this whole conversation would not even need to happen.

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wrod.

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We have to draw a line somewhere. Draw it at 17, or 16, or 18, it doesn't matter. What matters is that there be a certain age where the state treats you as an adult for this kind of decision, and conversely, an age where you are still a child and your parents need to be involved.

Then I think it should fall along the same lines as the age of consent.

The line drawing should probably be more consistent on the age for all of these things: sex; birth control; medical care; marriage. I'd argue in favor of that. I also suspect I would have a different reaction to finding out my 17 year old aborted without my knowledge than that my 13 year old did.

Cindy, if you're talking about being informed, legally, but not consent, is it that you would want to be notified after, or before?

Allyson, I think before. I feel this way for personal reasons as well as based on any principle. I want to make sure she'd get the best care. I would want to make sure she was doing what she really wanted to do, and not making a decision solely based on how desperate she felt. I would want her to know I would support and love her, regardless of what she decided. I think the secrecy adds to the panic that's already built into the situation.

Cashmere, I know everyone's situation is different. Yours is personal to you, and you made the decision you needed to make. Part of the reason I feel the way I do is because I know for a couple of my friends, they aborted because they couldn't bring themselves tell their parents. They didn't want to disappoint them. I had another friend who aborted, and later in life was infertile. I wonder if she'd had more follow up care, which her parents would have seen to, if she could have avoided that.

My best friend actually went for an abortion, and couldn't go through with it. She got up off the table before the procedure began. She still didn't tell her parents she was pregnant until weeks later, when she was bleeding, and thought she was losing the baby. Actually, even then, she didn't tell her parents. Her brothers did. Her parents took her to the hospital, got her medical care. They asked her what she wanted to do, and when she decided to keep the baby, they made sure she made her pre-natal appointments. And she and the baby lived with them until she was ready to move out, and they were kind and supportive to the baby's father, as well. When my friend was ready to move out (when the baby was about two), her parents helped her with her groceries and bills as they were able, and babysat all the time. These were the people she couldn't make herself come clean with. I don't think they even ever freaked out, once.

I think there should be safety nets for girls who really can't tell. I don't think it should be at the expense of the families that aren't abusive. I think the gov't, by allowing non-abusive families to be kept in the dark, contributes to this feeling that there is a need for secrecy, and indirectly to the feelings of shame.

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Timelies all!

Meh, Stupid headaches. At least the weird blurry spots before my eyes are gone.

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I dunno, this entire argument has made me think, "if they were gonna call my dad, I'd try the coathanger."

And really? My parents loved me and wouldn't have beaten me or any of the above. But bless them, I wouldn't ever tell them if I had needed an abortion and had one.

But I would have definately tried to self-administer.

I don't think you have ownership of your children's bodies.

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I'm totally against parental notification. And I think this is case for so many reasons.

I have a thousand medical things now that I don't inform my parents about. Sure, I'm an adult, but I was even more private as a kid. And if I had been pregnant and needed an abortion and had to tell my parents, I would have drunk myself into oblivion and done any other old wives tale to try to abort the pregnancy.

And honestly, I have great parents whom I love tremendously. But as a rule we don't discuss stuff like that and to be forced to would have been so reprehensible as a teen that I would have done anything possible to avoid it.

Cindy, I'm glad you are the parent you. I think your moral views are admirable. But they aren't mine and they certainly weren't my family's then and they aren't my family's moral views now.

eta of course Allyson says it much more concisely than I do!

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Allyson, you have responsibility for their well-being, which is bigger than any ownership issue ever could be.

Do you think any of that try-the-coathanger feeling comes from the fact that so many people do keep it secret? What if there were a change in attitude? I think this "Keep it secret" attitude perpetuates the shame. We treat it as if it is something that even supportive families shouldn't find out. That seems pathologically wrong, to me. You are 16, hormonal, scared, broke, uneducated, and the wonder dick has left for greener pastures. Here, make this big decision all by yourself, and by gum, don't tell the people who love you, and might help you the most. Our society is so sick.

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You are bringing up a chicken-and-egg argument. Is it shameful to have an abortion or do you feel shame because you had? doesn't matter if at the end of the day the net result is shame. Which it will be, I think, because the abortion part is only the ultimate shame, not the only piece.

I guess, Cindy, we'll just disagree on this point. I won't legislate your family if you won't legislate mine.

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I don't think you have ownership of your children's bodies.

This rings true with me. Also, I think you slowly lose ownership of your children's lives. At some point, they become their own individuals, capable of making decisions, making friends, having sex, screwing up, getting in trouble, learning or not learning from the experience. At some point, no matter the age, they are not the parent's to control, and a parent can only hope that advice is taken. Where that line is for each person is impossible to delineate, and impossible to codify, and I think there has to be some flexibility in each case for that line to move.

I'm not sure about medical consent, but I think in Canada, certain other rights consider the rights of the individual regardless of age. I know with information access and consent to release information, there are times when at 16 and older, consent to student records lies with the child. In FOI training, it was suggested (though it's not in law) that after the age of 12, consent to access or release records should come from both the minor and his/her parent.

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Also, I think you slowly lose ownership of your children's lives. At some point, they become their own individuals, capable of making decisions, making friends, having sex, screwing up, getting in trouble, learning or not learning from the experience. At some point, no matter the age, they are not the parent's to control, and a parent can only hope that advice is taken. Where that line is for each person is impossible to delineate, and impossible to codify, and I think there has to be some flexibility in each case for that line to move.

Sue, this is beautifully put. I just finished reading My Sister's Keeper and sort of deals with similar issues about self-determination of one's body from the opposite end of the equation (13-year-old girl's sister has leukemia and she has been "forced" to donate a variety of things including marrow... now she's being told to donate a kidney against her will and she wants medical emancipation from her parents.) One line that was really gorgeous was something about children not being given to us, merely being on loan.

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