Simon: I'm trying to put this as delicately as I can... How do I know you won't kill me in my sleep? Mal: You don't know me, son. So let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

'Serenity'


Buffy and Angel 1: BUFFYNANGLE4EVA!!!!!1!

Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.


Katie M - Dec 20, 2005 1:07:06 pm PST #2616 of 10459
I was charmed (albeit somewhat perplexed) by the fannish sensibility of many of the music choices -- it's like the director was trying to vid Canada. --loligo on the Olympic Opening Ceremonies

Do you think Kendra would have been betrayed?

Yes. There is no way that I can turn "life-threatening test with no warning" into something that is not a betrayal of, at the very least, what is supposed to be a professional partnership. I don't have a parent/child relationship with my boss, but if he tossed me into a meeting sink-or-swim and purposely infected me with the flu two days beforehand, I would think of that as a betrayal.

Do you think that Kendra was expecting support from her Watcher?

I think that Kendra would have smiled and nodded and not taken it personally, but yes, I think she expected her Watcher to be on her side rather than trying to get her killed.


§ ita § - Dec 20, 2005 1:26:45 pm PST #2617 of 10459
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

See, I don't think Giles was trying to get Buffy killed. I think Giles thought Buffy could win, but he didn't want her to go through the stress and the horror of a fight staged by the good guys.

I see it as a coming of age test. Send the boy out into the wilds with a spear, although he'll never hunt alone once he's a blooded warrior.

I don't think your analogy applies--in fact, I can't think of much corporate that would. But a coach deliberately but temporarily handicapping a college player (without necessarily telling him, because I think most coaches have more healthy relationships with their charges) or a drill sargeant fucking with the heads of the people in boot camp?

Sure.


Katie M - Dec 20, 2005 1:49:28 pm PST #2618 of 10459
I was charmed (albeit somewhat perplexed) by the fannish sensibility of many of the music choices -- it's like the director was trying to vid Canada. --loligo on the Olympic Opening Ceremonies

The boy knows he's getting sent out alone, though. Had Giles told Buffy about the test beforehand, I would've thought it was mildly insane-o without safeguards--I am not in any sense a warrior at heart--but I wouldn't've thought it was a betrayal.


§ ita § - Dec 20, 2005 2:01:43 pm PST #2619 of 10459
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I just don't think a proper watcher is in much of a position of trust. Not about something like that, anyway.


Vortex - Dec 21, 2005 6:23:28 am PST #2620 of 10459
"Cry havoc and let slip the boobs of war!" -- Miracleman

I think that a "proper" watcher would have created a mentality where the slayer obeyed without question, and is constantly being tested. a "proper" slayer would not have resented the actions of her watcher, because she would have been taught that she must "expect the unexpected"


§ ita § - Dec 21, 2005 7:29:53 am PST #2621 of 10459
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

a "proper" slayer would not have resented the actions of her watcher, because she would have been taught that she must "expect the unexpected"

Exactly.


DavidS - Dec 21, 2005 8:30:19 am PST #2622 of 10459
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

a "proper" slayer would not have resented the actions of her watcher, because she would have been taught that she must "expect the unexpected"

That's how Inspector Clouseau preferred it around his house, too.


Gris - Dec 21, 2005 9:42:03 am PST #2623 of 10459
Hey. New board.

So Buffy should constantly be looking over her shoulder for the Spanish inquisition?

I guess MOO was pretty close to that, actually.


sumi - Dec 21, 2005 10:51:27 am PST #2624 of 10459
Art Crawl!!!

The actor who played Wesley's robot dad does the audio books for The Song of Ice and Fire.


Topic!Cindy - Dec 21, 2005 10:59:06 am PST #2625 of 10459
What is even happening?

Cindy, so what powerful emotional moments affected you and yet left you feeling unused?

Tara's death. Buffy's death. Xander seeing Spike and Anya having sex and the ensuing confrontation. Buffy's first scene with Angel-sans-soul, in his apartment, after he's lost his soul, but before she knew. Pretty much all of both parts of becoming. Joyce's death (apart from Mom, Mom, Mommy, and fruit punch). Angel's last shot on BtVS in Graduation Day. Buffy stabbing Faith to save Angel. The Prom. Pretty much all of New Moon Rising. That's only the beginning, and I haven't even touched A:ts.

I actually never saw that moment in Becoming as inspired primarily by spite (and if I did, I would have to violently dislike Xander, so I'm glad I don't). I think Xander didn't like Angel, and understandably liked Angelus even less, and thought Buffy ought to kill Angelus promptly without dilly-dallying around wondering if Willow would be able to resoul him. There was an extremely short timeframe to work within regarding not ending the world, and I think Xander was right not to risk Buffy getting sentimental.

I think Xander was (lucky to be proven) strategically right, and was morally wrong.

There is no way that I can turn "life-threatening test with no warning" into something that is not a betrayal of, at the very least, what is supposed to be a professional partnership.

This doesn't mention though, that the circumstances were supposed to be controlled. They weren't controlled well enough, obviously, but I've always figured Giles' understanding was not that Buffy's life was at risk, until after everything went to hell.