Yeah, we're building a race of frog-people. It's a good time

Xander ,'Selfless'


Buffy and Angel 1: BUFFYNANGLE4EVA!!!!!1!

Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.


DavidS - Dec 21, 2005 8:30:19 am PST #2622 of 10459
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

a "proper" slayer would not have resented the actions of her watcher, because she would have been taught that she must "expect the unexpected"

That's how Inspector Clouseau preferred it around his house, too.


Gris - Dec 21, 2005 9:42:03 am PST #2623 of 10459
Hey. New board.

So Buffy should constantly be looking over her shoulder for the Spanish inquisition?

I guess MOO was pretty close to that, actually.


sumi - Dec 21, 2005 10:51:27 am PST #2624 of 10459
Art Crawl!!!

The actor who played Wesley's robot dad does the audio books for The Song of Ice and Fire.


Topic!Cindy - Dec 21, 2005 10:59:06 am PST #2625 of 10459
What is even happening?

Cindy, so what powerful emotional moments affected you and yet left you feeling unused?

Tara's death. Buffy's death. Xander seeing Spike and Anya having sex and the ensuing confrontation. Buffy's first scene with Angel-sans-soul, in his apartment, after he's lost his soul, but before she knew. Pretty much all of both parts of becoming. Joyce's death (apart from Mom, Mom, Mommy, and fruit punch). Angel's last shot on BtVS in Graduation Day. Buffy stabbing Faith to save Angel. The Prom. Pretty much all of New Moon Rising. That's only the beginning, and I haven't even touched A:ts.

I actually never saw that moment in Becoming as inspired primarily by spite (and if I did, I would have to violently dislike Xander, so I'm glad I don't). I think Xander didn't like Angel, and understandably liked Angelus even less, and thought Buffy ought to kill Angelus promptly without dilly-dallying around wondering if Willow would be able to resoul him. There was an extremely short timeframe to work within regarding not ending the world, and I think Xander was right not to risk Buffy getting sentimental.

I think Xander was (lucky to be proven) strategically right, and was morally wrong.

There is no way that I can turn "life-threatening test with no warning" into something that is not a betrayal of, at the very least, what is supposed to be a professional partnership.

This doesn't mention though, that the circumstances were supposed to be controlled. They weren't controlled well enough, obviously, but I've always figured Giles' understanding was not that Buffy's life was at risk, until after everything went to hell.


Matt the Bruins fan - Dec 21, 2005 11:16:57 am PST #2626 of 10459
"I remember when they eventually introduced that drug kingpin who murdered people and smuggled drugs inside snakes and I was like 'Finally. A normal person.'” —RahvinDragand

Well, the circumstances were presumably controlled to prevent the vampire from escaping and harming innocents. I never got the impression that the Watchers would intervene to save a Slayer who was failing the test.


§ ita § - Dec 21, 2005 12:08:40 pm PST #2627 of 10459
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I never got the impression that the Watchers would intervene to save a Slayer who was failing the test.

They have no use for her, after all. Buffy should pass, because she's good.


Jars - Dec 22, 2005 4:16:34 am PST #2628 of 10459

I think Buffy had every right to feel betrayed by Giles. Much moreso than any other Slayer, such as Kendra, might. Yes, it's a test, and the Slayer/Watcher dynamic is a warrior-culture type thing, but Buffy never had that. She treated Giles as a father figure, and he never stopped her. He's as much to blame for their relationship as she is. More, in fact, as he's the teacher, the leader.

Also, I've always kind of agreed with Xander on the Kick His Ass bit.


Topic!Cindy - Dec 22, 2005 6:48:55 am PST #2629 of 10459
What is even happening?

I never got the impression that the Watchers would intervene to save a Slayer who was failing the test.

They have no use for her, after all. Buffy should pass, because she's good.

Agreed, but I always read Giles as having that impression, at least until it all went to hell.


Vortex - Dec 22, 2005 9:43:21 am PST #2630 of 10459
"Cry havoc and let slip the boobs of war!" -- Miracleman

I think that giles always had misgivings about what he was doing. After he administered the adrenaline suppressor, he couldn't look her in the eye.


Topic!Cindy - Dec 23, 2005 1:52:01 am PST #2631 of 10459
What is even happening?

Oh, yes. I think so too, Vortex. I think he knew he was betraying their relationship and her trust in him. I just think the CoW probably kept him in the dark as to the underlying, dark purpose of the cruciamentum which is to kill off an ineffective slayer, which clears the field, allowing for a new one to be called.