It appears that eventually, sire-lines get watered down, and the further a newbie vamp is from the original sire of his line, the less powerful (and cool) s/he is as a vampire.

Source? I can believe that was established, but it's news to me (so I'm assuming it's from something that happened on Buffy).

Matt's probably heard this nine thousand times by now, but briefly: I think there's a third thing besides body and soul. We used "anima" over at TWoP, though essence works too. I need there to be a third thing partly for my own theological satisfaction, but for support I'll mention ghosts. Which despite being bodiless, have memories and personalities and wills, and can be evil or good (so they seem like something besides particularly energetic souls).

I think it also makes body-swapping hijinks slightly easier to deal with. With or without a soul, Angel remembers who and what he is. But when Marcus swapped bodies with him, Marcus had to figure out that he was in a vampiric body. So, more than just their souls switched places.

Source? I can believe that was established, but it's news to me (so I'm assuming it's from something that happened on Buffy).

The whole piece isn't canon. Some is guesswork based on what we did see. I can't remember if there was ever any canon on this, or not. I wrote it more than two years ago. I suspect I kept that to "it appears" because I didn't have a canonical reference for that.

Matt's probably heard this nine thousand times by now, but briefly: I think there's a third thing besides body and soul. We used "anima" over at TWoP, though essence works too. I need there to be a third thing partly for my own theological satisfaction, but for support I'll mention ghosts. Which despite being bodiless, have memories and personalities and wills, and can be evil or good (so they seem like something besides particularly energetic souls).

I mostly agree. I think early BtVS canon hinted that soul was what animates the body, but I think they got away from that. They definitely strayed from it in the 'verse once they had the souless boy on Angel. The closest thing we can know is that the soul leaves the body when the life force does. Vampires retain the minds (memories, personalities) of their victim-hosts, but maybe that's something peculiar to vampyrism. The soul could either be sentient or non-sentient, but attached to anima which is sentient.

Well, vamping starts before the body's dead, when the sire feeds the vamp-to-be his blood. Possibly, that's where the personality imprint occurs, while the vamp-to-be is dying and making the transformation to full vamp.

Oh, I didn't mean, like, "Prove it!" It just sounded like it might be (even loosely) based on something, so I wondered if I'd missed some interesting detail. Which I could use to form some new, and even more convoluted, theory.

Yeah, I always figured the demon accesses the human memories, and uses that as a springboard. 'Cause, hey, the brain's still there. (And often it's barely been used!)

Yeah, I always figured the demon accesses the human memories

I've always figured it kind of had to. After all, if it wants to pass at all as human it has to understand all the nuances of human interaction. Otherwise, you'd have demon essence in a human body with no idea of how to make it walk, talk, or look pretty to attract victims. Even if it doesn't base itself on the human's personality, it needs its memories.

Source? I can believe that was established, but it's news to me (so I'm assuming it's from something that happened on Buffy).

was there a discussion with Lindsey and Darla when she was trying to be vamped by Shemp?

Darla's resurrection actually makes a pretty good case for the animating spirits of vampires having an immortal aspect that survives death as well. When she was vamped a second time, she rose with the same attitudes toward Angel that she'd possessed in her previous undead incarnation, and at least as powerful as he to boot. I doubt either would have been true if a new vampiric demon had been freshly spawned by Drusilla in the usual manner.

Oh, I didn't mean, like, "Prove it!" It just sounded like it might be (even loosely) based on something, so I wondered if I'd missed some interesting detail. Which I could use to form some new, and even more convoluted, theory.

was there a discussion with Lindsey and Darla when she was trying to be vamped by Shemp?

This. I think there may have been, because when I first read Strega's question last night, there was a picture in my mind of Darla in a bar and then alleyway (I think), trying to get vamped, but I remember none of the lines. I don't remember Angel canon the way I remember Buffy canon. I haven't rewatched nearly as often.

Also? The under-vamps are always in vamp face, like they have no self-control or anything. t meta Now, I figure on the production end of things, it may just be that it makes more sense to usually keep the day player in vamp make up, than make his face up in vamp make up, take it off, put on beauty make up, then make him up in vamp make up over and over again. t /meta However, I don't have to pay attention to that. So, it was one of the things that informed my opinion.

Darla's resurrection actually makes a pretty good case for the animating spirits of vampires having an immortal aspect that survives death as well. When she was vamped a second time, she rose with the same attitudes toward Angel that she'd possessed in her previous undead incarnation, and at least as powerful as he to boot. I doubt either would have been true if a new vampiric demon had been freshly spawned by Drusilla in the usual manner.

She had the same mind and memories, though. Doesn't that explain it?

I doubt either would have been true if a new vampiric demon had been freshly spawned by Drusilla in the usual manner.

does it matter that it was Drusilla? Would it have been different if Darla had been sired by Shemp?

Also? The under-vamps are always in vamp face, like they have no self-control or anything

It's a cost issue. The CGI for vampface is expensive, and if the character isn't important, or you know that they are a vampire from the beginning, they didn't bother to spend the money.

eta: look at me talking in the present tense! I'm not in denial. I'M NOT!!

It's a cost issue. The CGI for vampface is expensive, and if the character isn't important, or you know that they are a vampire from the beginning, they didn't bother to spend the money.

Right, but that's meta, so I don't have to pay attention to that. In the story (which is told in a visual medium, so the pictures on the screen matter, the same way the words do), the miniony vamps are almost always in game face.