Uh, are we gonna fight, or is there just gonna be a monster sarcasm rally?

Stoner Vamp ,'Lessons'


Buffy and Angel 1: BUFFYNANGLE4EVA!!!!!1!

Is it better the second time around? Or the third? Or tenth? This is the place to come when you have a burning desire to talk about an old episode that was just re-run.


P.M. Marc - Jul 30, 2005 9:04:30 am PDT #1526 of 10458
So come, my friends, be not afraid/We are so lightly here/It is in love that we are made; In love we disappear

She dreamed about various Potentials dying in S7. IIRC, the first couple teasers were all about that. That was when the season still looked like it would rock.


Topic!Cindy - Jul 30, 2005 9:10:15 am PDT #1527 of 10458
What is even happening?

Oh, that's right. She had that Run Lola Run dream, and then another. But after the Potentials were in the house, didn't she have a dream about the First Slayer? And there was the dream where Joyce/or the First-as-Joyce were talking to her.


Typo Boy - Jul 31, 2005 7:05:36 pm PDT #1528 of 10458
Calli: My people have a saying. A man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken.Avon: Life expectancy among your people must be extremely short.

Narratively, Joss always withholds commitment to a canonical reading until it yields maximum narrative payoff. In short, he will dick you around trying to figure out the worldbuilding rules, but will Joss you when it's convenient for him. The soul is one example.

Yeah but in this case I think he withheld committment when he needed to make it - the whole question of the relation of the possesion of a soul to the ability to make ethical choices. One obvious example (though a secondary one) was the whole inconsistent characterization of Spike. Admittedly the main problem here was keeping Spike going out of love for the character/actor when the narrative might have been better served by killing him. But even leaving Spike alive could have been done better; and I think the whole "nature of the soul" thing played a role in how badly and inconsitently Spike was characterized in later seasons. I agree that Buffy was more about character than world building. But the particular kind of ambiguity we had about the soul was a character NOT just a world building issue.


DavidS - Jul 31, 2005 8:29:32 pm PDT #1529 of 10458
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

No, I agree he should've filled out that bit of his universe because it makes it a lot harder to judge his characters actions without knowing that.


Vortex - Aug 01, 2005 5:29:56 am PDT #1530 of 10458
"Cry havoc and let slip the boobs of war!" -- Miracleman

I don't think that it makes it hard to judge the characters, it makes it hard to determine what happened after they died. Anya died a hero's death certainly (I mean, she was cleaved in half!). Joss always ried to stay away from religion in the shows. Riley was the only character that we knew went to church, and Willow's Judaism was played for laughs. Crosses always worked on vampires, whether the user believed or not.


DavidS - Aug 01, 2005 7:28:37 am PDT #1531 of 10458
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

I don't think that it makes it hard to judge the characters, it makes it hard to determine what happened after they died.

Yeah, I guess I mean the implications of soul-having rather than afterlife.


Vortex - Aug 01, 2005 7:49:36 am PDT #1532 of 10458
"Cry havoc and let slip the boobs of war!" -- Miracleman

Right. well, as Angel said "the demon doesn't get your soul, that's gone" I can't recall if there was ever a connection between having a soul and a (positive) afterlife, i.e. is there ever a demon that goes to "heaven".


tiggy - Aug 01, 2005 10:00:25 am PDT #1533 of 10458
I do believe in killing the messenger, you know why? Because it sends a message. ~ Damon Salvatore

so say there is an afterlife and Buffy and Angel(Liam) meet up there. is he even going to have a clue who she is? since, ya know, the mythology says that the soul is "gone" and the soul is what i would assume would be in the afterlife.

so if Liam's soul went to the afterlife after Darla vamped him, he won't know what his physical body did after that fact.

this always frustrated me about the Whedonverse.


ChiKat - Aug 01, 2005 10:02:12 am PDT #1534 of 10458
That man was going to shank me. Over an omelette. Two eggs and a slice of government cheese. Is that what my life is worth?

But, the gyspy curse restored Angel's soul to him.


§ ita § - Aug 01, 2005 10:02:22 am PDT #1535 of 10458
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Liam never met Buffy, so he wouldn't know her. I don't know what happens to vampires when they die -- is it more than an on-off switch? What did Darla have to say?