YES! Fred took it to a whole new level. My favorite Fred moment was her death. I sort of mean that sincerely, because I managed to be emotionally manipulated quite touched by it, because of how it affected the others. I tried for a long time to like her, and succeeded from time to time, but it never lasted. I just didn't get either why all the characters so loved her (I didn't think she earned it) or why fandom did (and AA probably earned it, but it escaped me).

Both Willow and Fred suffer from Dr. Marlena Evans syndrome. Who here watched DOOL?

I hated both Willow and Fred when they were the cutesy-poo nerdy girls. Once Willow went gay and Fred and Gunn broke up, I got interested and I loved both of them by the end of the shows. I never got the appeal of total geek, little girl Willow at all. She just annoyed the hell out of me. Once she grew up, I loved her.

But over the years, the reaction to her, that I've seen from fandom, has always surprised me.

I think part of it is that so many of us in fandom self-identify as having been Willow types in high school, and we like to imagine that we would've also been winsome and adorable, and could've dated an Oz if our high school had featured such a person.

What Susan said. While I identified with Buffy as the lead on the show, I more closely self-identified with Willow, the geeky nerd who was dressed by her mother. I mean, my mother still sewed 90% of my clothes even in high school, so let me tell you Cordelia would have had a fine time with me around to pick on.

Doesn't necessarily mean I liked Willow better, just that I could more closely identify with her than with Buffy who was a cheerleader and the May Queen at Hemery.

or why fandom did

It didn't really. I mean, I did, but not for the reasons they seemed to want me to like her.

I've been continuing my obsessive dvd episode watching. Today it was What's my line, parts 1 and 2. Until the flesh eaating demon showed up in Season 7 (the Gnarl?), I think the Worm guy from the Order of Taraka was the grossest demon.

I've also learned that originally, it was the Three who were from the Order of Aurelius, not the Master.

Cindy, we're soulmates! Or something like that. I watch Days rather randomly. But I saw one a while back where Bo told Marlena to mind her own business, and it was awesome.

I get the identifying-with-Willow thing as a concept, but that's why she grated on me. She didn't seem like a geek; she seemed like a geeky teenage boy's fantasy. I was certainly a giant geek in high school, and so were my friends, and I think even we'd have made fun of Willow for being so cloying.

And I will never stop insisting that post-Pylea Fred should have been like Leela from Dr. Who. That would have been fun.

I'm in the identified-with-Willow crowd, and think there may be some amount of retconning going on. I don't think she really reached the cutesy let-me-make-up-for-my-thoughtless-and-deadly-blunders-with-cookies stage until Season 4, when she was admittedly milking the fan favorite thing for all she was worth and escaping the consequences of her actions.

Earlier there was a lot more legitimate sadness and sense of responsibility to Willow, but I think Joss suffers from this blind spot where once he thinks a character is great, EVERYONE MUST LOVE THEM. I've seen that happen with Willow, Spike, Fred, and River, and in my opinion only Willow has been redeemed to date—by the events of Season 6. The story arc showed real, devastating consequences to the character getting her way all the time and had everyone stop excusing her self-indulgent behavior after it became too disruptive.

And then she came back blinvisible, and all was forgiven, because she has a cute tummy.

*cough* Sorry. It's odd when you and I aren't in near-complete agreement, Matt.

Hey, you won't hear me defending Season 7. As far as I'm concerned, it only had three episodes: "Selfless," "Conversations with Dead People," and "Chosen." Oh, and a few minute-long 4-way split screen video titled "Him."