Here is the thing. Jack is an anti-hero. The situation has rendered him incapable of proceeding in a heroic fashion.

We Buffistas recognize this. The vast majority, though, accepts that Jack is "us".

If we could only rely on heroes to save the world -- there mightn't be anything left.

I'm not saying the end justifies every mean, but I'm tired of all the white-hattery that has so little in the way of grey.

World != white, world !=black.

ita, have you been listening to your old Michael Jackson LPs again?

Forget "We Are The World" -- Michael is the whole world all unto himself.

I remember an old French headline "Michael Jackson -- ni homme, ni femme, ni blanc, ni noir" from the 80s which made me laugh.

These days, they could expand it to "ni adulte, ni enfant"

[man, woman, white, black, adult, child, to be totally obvious]

World != white, world !=black.

I get that, in so many ways.

I am truly sorry I brought race into the discussion.

... heroes to save the world -- there might not be anything left...

Nevermind what Jack does on a weekly basis. He is not a hero. In fact, 24 may not have a hero.

That supposition alone rocks.

Still, I worry some about how Joe Sixpack identifies with Jack, and how the torturing seems justified to him.

I am truly sorry I brought race into the discussion.

Who's talking about race?

Jack is a hero. He's not a tradtionaly 21st century Western hero, but he's still a hero in this Buffista's books. I dare not speak for the rest of them.

He's a brave and focussed man, whose goal is saving as many lives as possible. He's just willing to sacrifice more than most heroes we're given -- more of his own (drug addiction) and more of those around him (the white hat that saved his life).

I don't use the definition of anti-hero that says "shares attributes with the villain," because that presupposes that villains and heroes are that polarised. I don't use the definition of "tragic flaw" or "questionable means" either. Spike is (or has been) more of an anti-hero as I define the term. Doing good without caring about good, for instance. I'm trying to think of my other sort of anti-hero, the one too broken to do good. Nothing comes readily to mind.

Black -vs white comes down to "race", for me. That may be a personal problem.

Set all of that aside.

Jack is not a good guy. He is expediant, at best.

Black -vs white comes down to "race", for me. That may be a personal problem.

It is a problem when you start applying race to other people's positions when they're not discussing it.

How do you define hero or good guy? Do you believe, in life and death conflicts that they exist in real life? If not (or, hell, even if you do) do you look to fiction for that purity, or do you not enjoy fiction less if it presents you a not-good guy as the protagonist (if Jack's not a good guy, what term do you use to distinguish him from both the good and bad guys?)

Who else isn't a good guy? Is Mal a good guy? Jack Bristow?

Forget "We Are The World" -- Michael is the whole world all unto himself.

Heh. I meant his charming little ditty "Black and White."

I know -- I was just riffing from there.