What's great about it is that not only does The Player make fun of long tracking shots, it also makes fun of the people like us who discuss them.

Exactly. That whole movie is nothing but one long joke on all of us, combined with Robert Altman calling up all his buddies and asking them to do cameos.

Welles is hard to approach without the dull sense of impending canon, and that does indeed sour people and put them off and doom his chances of cracking the AFI top 100; but in my experience of the handful of people who have actually gritted their teeth and seen it, the visceral WOW is in fact a totally typical reaction and not at all the exception.

That CK didn't live up to they hype for me has little to do with any dull sense of impending canon (I'm lacking canon-fear, I suspect, which is logical given that the first serious decade of movie watching for me was all about the classics thanks to AMC when it was good, a stack of VHS tapes, and no car). It was a clever, lovely, well-done movie that just failed to grab me on anything other than a "well, nice craftsmanship" level any of the times I saw it.

I don't know of anyone who actively avoided seeing it because of how hyped it is (though they probably exist); on the contrary, almost everyone I know who has seen it, has seen it because they've heard it's an incredible movie.

I found Citizen Kane mostly boring the first time I saw it; although I dimly appreciated the formal elements I was not even moved by the visuals at age 16. Then a number of years later I was harangued by a classmate who described the movie as Welles's thesis about the bizarrely American myth of the self-made man (we had been discussing Carnegie), and the next time I sat down to watch it, I dug it.

I still don't love it; I don't think I ever will. But now, I understand why it leaves such a giant footprint in film history, and why it's a worthwhile movie even when you're not talking about film history.

What surprised me the first time I saw Citizen Kane was how funny it was. It's not a ponderous movie, in my experience, at all, but hugely entertaining and exhilarating. If I prefer Touch of Evil, it's because I have an unhealthy love of baroque sleaze. I don't know if I'd claim it was the better movie, though.

I still don't love it; I don't think I ever will. But now, I understand why it leaves such a giant footprint in film history, and why it's a worthwhile movie even when you're not talking about film history.

It's a worthwhile movie, and my movie viewing is the richer for all the times I've seen it. I don't think I'd love Velvet Goldmine half so much if I didn't realize how consciously it's mapping the style and themes of CK (with a side order of Casablanca) to the glam rock era.

Sorry if I've been cranky or on my high horse about my lack of emotional connection to it. My back just gets up when I perceive the trend of the conversation to be moving towards an attitude of "if you don't like it, you must not get it!" or "don't fear the classics! they won't bite!" Because I do get it, and I don't fear the classics (though the nice ones bite), and discussion around b.org occasionally smacks more of lecturing at than sharing with, causing my knee to jerk and my eyes to narrow.

Ple, sorry, didn't mean to get your back up; I was responding to Nutty specifically raising the issue of ToE not being generally popular and having a Big Classic reputation that makes a lot of people keep it at arm's length.

eta: And also musing on the fact that I have that exact reaction myself to much of Welles; Nutty's comment was one that pinged me because it's precisely how I myself approach him, and it's a hump I have to push myself over every time I go to one of his movies (except ToE). I didn't mean to universalize my own experience, and I'm sorry.

No worries, Ple. I know the knee-jerk of which you speak. I think it's valuable to go through de-mythification sessions, to shake up settled thinking and force viewers to re-evaluate their opinions, every now and then. The fact that my de-mythifications are like unto cult deprogramming should in no way reflect on my moral fiber.

Ollie ollie oxen free: "classic" movies that failed to work on you. If I can forgive my brother in law for disliking Real Genius, the world can forgive me for not caring one way or the other for just about any of the Katharine Hepburn romantic comedies.

Ple, sorry, didn't mean to get your back up; I was responding to Nutty specifically raising the issue of ToE not being generally popular and having a Big Classic reputation that makes a lot of people keep it at arm's length.

Now I'm confused, because I didn't see in the post where you switched from the CK discussion to the ToE one. Too many movies! Argh! Brain... breaking! I was responding on a CK level.

I'm still baffled at the notion of a Big Classic Rep keeping people from seeing things, because I think that's the only thing keeping a lot of good older movies in print and the only reason most people see them. The buzz, you see. I'm not doubting it, just stating that it's foreign to my experience.

I haven't seen ToE in at least a decade, and I can't actually remember how I responded to it. (It's weird: the movie is a blank spot in my viewing history. I remember my extreme joy at, say The Ruling Class, or at Nothing Sacred, but all I remember about ToE is that I've seen it.)

the world can forgive me for not caring one way or the other for just about any of the Katharine Hepburn romantic comedies.

Does The African Queen count? That didn't do much for me. Though there was an explosion at the end. That was nice.

Ollie ollie oxen free: "classic" movies that failed to work on you. If I can forgive my brother in law for disliking Real Genius, the world can forgive me for not caring one way or the other for just about any of the Katharine Hepburn romantic comedies.

I like most of them, but can't stand her early dramas like Stage Door, which doesn't stop me from wandering about with a dull look on my face muttering "the calla lilies are in bloom again" when I'm tired.

Until I was 20 or so, it was like pulling teeth to get me to watch anything that wasn't older than me. I've seen a scary number of old movies as a result.