I'm totally embarassed, but which one is "Origin" again?

Connor returns and kicks Sajahn's ass.

Connor returns and kicks Sajahn's ass.

Ah. De nada. Yep, that's gooooood TV.

Hell, yeah, that was a good ep.

I think that the Angel season I enjoyed the most while I was watching was Season 2, but in retrospect, I love the whole Connor two-season arc (culminating in "Origin") for how utterly dark it made the entire show, and where it took all of the characters involved (except for Cordy--she shone the best in Season 1 and early Season 2, until she cut her hair).

We've never had a proper, knock-down, drag-out Buffy vs Angel fite, have we?

BtVS in a walk. The only time I preferred AtS was the beginning of the second season. It was the better show during that time period, but even then it wasn't better than Buffy S2-S3. Also, I cared much much more about the characters on BtVS than I did about the characters on AtS. The ruination of Cordelia was the worst crime either show ever committed, far surpassing Crack!Willow or the potentials. I don't know that Angel ever had a season as indifferent as Buffy S7 was though.

Also, AtS never seemed to maintain the brilliance season-long the way Buffy did at its best. Mind, there are multiple mini-arcs on AtS that I love and prefer to much of Buffy S5 and S7.

Connor returns and kicks Sajahn's ass.

That was pretty fucking great.

AtS vs. BtVS. It's a tough one. I didn't discover the shows until late S5 of Buffy, and didn't catch on with Angel until B6/A3 during the large part of which, frankly-speaking, Angel kind of sucked. And I'm one of the few people who mostly enjoyed S7 of Buffy, squandered story-potentials and all.

So Buffy has more of my affection. But in all 12 seasons of the shows combined, I never loved any character as much as I loved Wesley, so there's that. Easy the best character evolution we got to see in Jossverse, IMO.

We've never had a proper, knock-down, drag-out Buffy vs Angel fite, have we?

BtVS in a walk.

Hmm. I think AtS edges out BtVS, just barely. And that's because I didn't dislike any seasons of AtS. Some episodes, sure. But not entire seasons. And I really dislike S7 BtVS.

The ruination of Cordelia was the worst crime either show ever committed, far surpassing Crack!Willow or the potentials.

I'll totally second this emotion. I'm glad big daddy Fury managed to give her such a stunningly redemptive (in terms of the crap they'd done with the character) send off, but I'd trade that wonderful ep if they had never had to. In a micro-second. Killing her off in "Birthday" would have been better, IMO.

AtS, I think, hit the mark more often, but rarely hit the extremes BtVS did. For example, AtS rarely had lows such as "Wrecked" or "Go Fish,"--which, upon rewatch, I realized I really DO dislike--or the frickin' puppet, even though it had it's dreadful moments: "She," "Dad."

As with most ME shows, though, I'll be the first to admit that even these had their moments--it's a given.

However, AtS was usually about the tension and tight control--it always used a more tightly controlled method of storytelling, even when it was being, to quote the Minear, "operatic."

On the other hand, BtVS was looser and, often, more experimental, and it's experimental storytelling more often than not paid off--"Hush," Once More With Feeling," and "Restless" were fairly bold ventures, and BtVS shined for taking them.

Ayup. I'm with the St Cordy hatas -- worst Jossverse narrative mis-step, and one so barely recovered from (actually, I wouldn't even say it was recovered from, per se -- I'd have been quite happy to never see her again -- Fury's work with her was icing on top of icing).

I agree. I also think the addition of Fred lacked something. Letting Lilah go and attempting to fill the spot with Eve was maddening to me, too. The flitting around, treating Angelus as an almost separate being from Angel cheapened Angel's struggle. Oh, and that Cordy thing, again.

BtVS deserved much better than it got in season 7. Overall, I think it was the superior show, but when Angel was *on* it was as good as BtVS at its best.