Angel 5: Is That It? Am I Done?
[NAFDA] This is where we talk about the show! Anything that's aired in the US (including promos) is fair game. No spoilers though -- if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it.
AtS vs. BtVS. It's a tough one. I didn't discover the shows until late S5 of Buffy, and didn't catch on with Angel until B6/A3 during the large part of which, frankly-speaking, Angel kind of sucked. And I'm one of the few people who mostly enjoyed S7 of Buffy, squandered story-potentials and all.
So Buffy has more of my affection. But in all 12 seasons of the shows combined, I never loved any character as much as I loved Wesley, so there's that. Easy the best character evolution we got to see in Jossverse, IMO.
We've never had a proper, knock-down, drag-out Buffy vs Angel fite, have we?
BtVS in a walk.
Hmm. I think AtS edges out BtVS, just barely. And that's because I didn't dislike any seasons of AtS. Some episodes, sure. But not entire seasons. And I really dislike S7 BtVS.
The ruination of Cordelia was the worst crime either show ever committed, far surpassing Crack!Willow or the potentials.
I'll totally second this emotion. I'm glad big daddy Fury managed to give her such a stunningly redemptive (in terms of the crap they'd done with the character) send off, but I'd trade that wonderful ep if they had never had to. In a micro-second. Killing her off in "Birthday" would have been better, IMO.
AtS, I think, hit the mark more often, but rarely hit the extremes BtVS did. For example, AtS rarely had lows such as "Wrecked" or "Go Fish,"--which, upon rewatch, I realized I really DO dislike--or the frickin' puppet, even though it had it's dreadful moments: "She," "Dad."
As with most ME shows, though, I'll be the first to admit that even these had their moments--it's a given.
However, AtS was usually about the tension and tight control--it always used a more tightly controlled method of storytelling, even when it was being, to quote the Minear, "operatic."
On the other hand, BtVS was looser and, often, more experimental, and it's experimental storytelling more often than not paid off--"Hush," Once More With Feeling," and "Restless" were fairly bold ventures, and BtVS shined for taking them.
Ayup. I'm with the St Cordy hatas -- worst Jossverse narrative mis-step, and one so barely recovered from (actually, I wouldn't even say it was recovered from, per se -- I'd have been quite happy to never see her again -- Fury's work with her was icing on top of icing).
I agree. I also think the addition of Fred lacked something. Letting Lilah go and attempting to fill the spot with Eve was maddening to me, too. The flitting around, treating Angelus as an almost separate being from Angel cheapened Angel's struggle. Oh, and that Cordy thing, again.
BtVS deserved much better than it got in season 7. Overall, I think it was the superior show, but when Angel was *on* it was as good as BtVS at its best.
If BtVS S7 and AtS S3 had the worst season-off... hmmm. On the Buffy side, you have the endless speechifying, the annoying potentials, marginalization of the Scoobies and the pod-Giles. On the AtS side, you've got the destruction of everything I've ever loved about Cordelia, the irritating baby storyline and goofy!Angel (I mean, I loved angry-psychotic!adolescent Connor, but he annoyed the fuck out of me as the baby), and the limp Wes/Fred/Gunn triangle.
On the other hand, BtVS had Selfless, CWDP, and Chosen, while AtS had Billy, Loyalty and Sleep Tight. Hmmm.
I'm gonna have to go with Angel S3 (much as I love the Fall of Wesley arc), because while S7 BtVS episodes frequently bored me, there were no episodes on Buffy that I loathed as much as Dad and Provider. And the character assasination of Cordelia, to me, was a greater sin than pod!Giles, since it had longer-reaching implications.
The ruination of Cordelia was the worst crime either show ever committed, far surpassing Crack!Willow or the potentials.
I'd have to disagree. WTF?!Cordy was a sad, sad development, but the rest of the show didn't suffer nearly as much as BtVS did under Crack!Willow and the Potentials. (Oh yes, and Pod!Giles and Absent!Xander and Speech!Buffy. At least AtS only ruined one character.)
I guess I see the potentials as a bad idea, Crack!Willow as a brief wrong turn (since her flipping evil was fun), and Saint Cordy a betrayal.
::seeks distance::
::finds none::
Crack!Willow as a brief wrong turn
See, I didn't recognize Willow in S7 either. I loved her in Villains (enough to forget the crack metaphor almost entirely, if only for that 40 minutes), but after that she was never my Willow ever again.
