Mal: How drunk was I last night? Jayne: Well I dunno. I passed out.

'Our Mrs. Reynolds'


Angel 5: Is That It? Am I Done?  

[NAFDA] This is where we talk about the show! Anything that's aired in the US (including promos) is fair game. No spoilers though -- if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it.


Topic!Cindy - May 21, 2004 10:26:31 am PDT #1265 of 3531
What is even happening?

I thought it was significant that Wes mentioned being a Watcher. He did it in a context of telling truth from lies/majik. But it’s also significant because of Illyria. A Watcher trains someone else to do the fighting. Sunnydale Wes was a lousy Watcher. He failed Faith and Buffy. There was some redemption for him with Buffy in the Graduation Finale – he did stay to try to help (although he got knocked down in the first seconds of the battle and made no further contribution, thereby demonstrating his ineffectiveness). But there was no redemption for him with Faith until LA.

Me, too. I was just working on a section about that for my LJ entry that is probably never going to come to pass. It was about how all of their assignments, and the way they fit so nicely with each character's journey. I'll just put that part up here.

Each character is assigned a target from the Circle of the Black Thorn. Each target (or the way the character approaches it, or the fallout from making the mark) is, in some sense, a personal demon for the team member to whom it is assigned. Wesley must kill Vail. In part, killing Vail is assigned to Wesley because of who he is. While tending her wounds, Wesley told Illyria that one of the first things a Watcher learns is to separate truth from illusion because in the world of magicks, it is the hardest thing to do. Who else can handle this sorcerer demon?

Perhaps more significantly, Vail-as-target also ties nicely into Wesley's journey, because Angel knows Vail is psychologically vulnerable to Wes. Vail indicated as much when he confided to Angel that he sees Wesley as intriguingly unstable. Angel tells Wes that Vail suspects Wesley would betray Angel. Of course Wesley has unintentionally betrayed Angel before. The memory of this is only in his mind again, because (again) he failed to trust Angel (and I'll note here his distrust is always justifiable, I'm not criticizing Wesley, just summarizing the past*), and broke the Orlon Window, which returned the S3/S4 memories to him. This—Angel assigning Cyvus Vail to Wes—is, to me, one of the most beautiful moments of the episode, and possibly of the series as a whole, or at least in Wesley and Angel's journey together.

In giving Wesley this assignment, essentially Angel is saying, since you have failed to trust me, and betrayed me before, Vail suspects you'll do it again. Regardless of and because of the fact that you have failed to trust me—have betrayed me before, I have such faith in you, that I am trusting you to go to the one who could most help you betray me, and then justify my faith in you. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone who isn't me. But it just brings me to tears, and Wesley's parting glance at Angel, reveals that Wes is fully cognizant of the depth of faith Angel has in him.

*Wesley's history with Angel is so complicated, that I have had to simplify it, in order to address it while maintaining any kind of flow. I completely understand why BtVS S3 Wesley didn't think the Scoobies should waste time saving Angel. I completely understand why Wesley did not trust Angel with Connor, once he started uncovering the prophecy. Angel does, too. And if I had time, I'd go into Plei's observations of how very Catholic Angel is, and tie it all in. But I can't.

Suffice it to say that Angel has frequently been grateful, in a very real sense, when those important to him have failed to trust him, or have had to betray him. He may have been hurt, and/or angry, but more than anyone else, Angel knows the dark that lurks inside him—knows what he is. He is glad Buffy "killed" him to save the world. He respects Connor dumping him to the bottom of the sea, when Connor thought Angel killed Holtz. He respects that Wes took Connor from them. He respected Gunn's early distrust of him. I keep seeing that scene from early on, when Cordelia reveals she always keeps a stake on hand. His reaction there (I can't even remember the episode) is what I'm trying to get at here. It has made him feel safer...from himself. He respects that these people did him wrong, when trying to do right.


Narrator - May 21, 2004 10:32:30 am PDT #1266 of 3531
The evil is this way?

I completely understand why Wesley did not trust Angel with Connor, once he started uncovering the prophecy. Angel does, too.

Wasn't it interesting that Wesley defying (betraying?) Angel and smashing the Orion Window is what saves Angel in a way? Connor stopped Marcus from staking Angel and gave Angel time to figure out how to defeat him. But maybe more important is that by restoring Connor's memories he gave Angel back his son. Connor knows that Angel is his father and is OK with it. That his son is alive, well-adjusted, and able to take care of himself must be very comforting to Angel as a parent. But even better is that he can talk to his son as a son. That Wes gave Angel.


Polter-Cow - May 21, 2004 10:39:53 am PDT #1267 of 3531
What else besides ramen can you scoop? YOU CAN SCOOP THIS WORLD FROM DARKNESS!

In giving Wesley this assignment, essentially Angel is saying, since you have failed to trust me, and betrayed me before, Vail suspects you'll do it again. Regardless of and because of the fact that you have failed to trust me—have betrayed me before, I have such faith in you, that I am trusting you to go to the one who could most help you betray me, and then justify my faith in you. I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone who isn't me. But it just brings me to tears, and Wesley's parting glance at Angel, reveals that Wes is fully cognizant of the depth of faith Angel has in him.

That makes total sense, Cindy, and I think it's awesome.


Hayden - May 21, 2004 10:40:07 am PDT #1268 of 3531
aka "The artist formerly known as Corwood Industries."

I dunno, maybe I'm more naive about how things are done in TV land. But calling the WB "a bad network" and specifically talking smack about what's-his-name Levin seem to me to be more Paulie Walnuts than Sun Tzu. Please note that I'm not saying that the guy isn't entitled to his opinion. All I'm saying is that he makes good TV, and I'd hate to see him shut out in the future. Also, building on my analogy above, I really do hope that HBO gives him a show. If they waste money on dreck like Arli$$, surely they could put some cash into a Whedon show.

OK, I'm going to stop flogging this dead horse. I think we understand each other.


Polter-Cow - May 21, 2004 10:43:09 am PDT #1269 of 3531
What else besides ramen can you scoop? YOU CAN SCOOP THIS WORLD FROM DARKNESS!

I think we understand each other.

I'm having "Checkpoint" flashbacks.


Hayden - May 21, 2004 10:45:49 am PDT #1270 of 3531
aka "The artist formerly known as Corwood Industries."

Nah, I like y'all too much to fling the sword at anybody.


Topic!Cindy - May 21, 2004 10:47:41 am PDT #1271 of 3531
What is even happening?

I completely agree, Narrator. That's sort of where I was trying to go with my piece. They did their best, and sometimes their best wasn't only wrong, it was evil, but...Well, if Spike is love's bitch, Angel is fate's bitch. Has anyone here mentioned how often Liam/Angel has met his destiny in an alleyway?


Polter-Cow - May 21, 2004 10:47:44 am PDT #1272 of 3531
What else besides ramen can you scoop? YOU CAN SCOOP THIS WORLD FROM DARKNESS!

Yeah, be careful. If I recall correctly, she threw it at the Indian guy.


-t - May 21, 2004 10:48:23 am PDT #1273 of 3531
I am a woman of various inclinations and only some of the time are they to burn everything down in frustration

But maybe more important is that by restoring Connor's memories he gave Angel back his son.

Okay, that light just went on my head. Nice full circle of the Wes-Angel-Connor relationship. And the second betrayal mitigates the effects of the first. Nifty.


Nutty - May 21, 2004 10:52:20 am PDT #1274 of 3531
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

Spike is love's bitch, Angel is fate's bitch.

(lightbulb!) You know, this is why I just don't like Angel as a character. Be your own bitch, sure, fine, but don't be the bitch of The Writer Told Me To.

I think I could have liked the whole show better if it hadn't felt so arbitrarily fateful.