Polgara, I also think maybe who is being seen as being piled on depends on the reader's perspective, and how close they are to each of the people involved. Obviously, you are closer to ita and Allyson than to Sean, so you feel more strongly about posts directed to them, which is how it should be.

Other people are closer to Sean, and while I don't think anyone thinks his initial post was in any way appropriate, they did try to view it through what they know about him, and what he is going through. For some of those people, I am guessing (and I could be wrong) that Allyson's post was upsetting because while it was aimed at defending ita, it also unnecessarily poked at Sean's sore spots, namely his employment situation.

For myself, I wish I had said something about Sean's initiial post, even though there were a number of reasons I did not do so that seemed valid at the time. For much of what happened after that, I agree with most of what Jessica said here : Jessica "Bureaucracy 3: Oh, so now you want to be part of the SOLUTION?" Aug 31, 2004 7:14:02 am PDT, except that I fall into the liking how ita's responses frequently make me think/post better camp.

please don't burn your house down. We do beat dead horses and believe me I really really get that. It just seems that there should be a middle ground between no comments when something happens that goes against community standards and pages and pages of comments.

It needs to be ok for people to say, that was out of line, even it wasn't at them.

And I hear Polgara's point. I just don't have a good answer.

Tone is impossible to argue, god knows we've tried.

This whole thing has bugged. I read Sean's post and didn't say anything. My reason, I'm ita's friend and it will be seen as ganging up. (If there is one repetitive discussion element around b.org that I loathe it is about cliques and that whole posters with influence thing). Nothing else has pinged me as out of line. Doesn't mean I agree with all of it, just not against community standards as I read them.

please don't burn your house down.

I'd totally win the argument though, wouldn't I?

It needs to be ok for people to say, that was out of line, even it wasn't at them.

I understand that. My approach has changed over the years, from the Table Talk days when this whole forum thing was new to me, to now, with this board and Livejournal and the behemoth that is fandom. Everyone's got to have their own approach.

Okay, so then why did you, Hec?

Because ita seemed interested in how she was being perceived different than how she perceived herself.

No, it helped me. I know it's not just Sean that feels hurt, and Nutty squirmy. This I hadn't realised, and is valuable information for me.

Also, since I particularly value her discussion style I wanted to note that. Though on re-read, if I were ita I might be tempted to say, "Thanks so much for your defense which included the image of me callously poking a finger into somebody's wound." I don't know - it made sense to me at the time.

I'd totally win the argument though, wouldn't I?

we aren't arguing, nice lady. What you would win is the special prize of FIREMEN!!! woohoo.

Does that help clear things up?

Actually, it does. I rarely hang out at Bureaucracy, so knowing it's often in turmoil helps immensely, as does this:

Lots of people jumped down Sean's throat in Natter and demanded he apologize. All people did to Allyson was disagree with her. Nobody's demanding she apologize.

Although I disagree with

Not what happened. Sean screamed obscenities at ita, ita responded admirably.

There were six whole posts and seven minutes between the Sean and ita posts, and I think that's a lot of time. But that's just my opinion, and I can accept that we don't agree on it.

Polgara, I also think maybe who is being seen as being piled on depends on the reader's perspective, and how close they are to each of the people involved. Obviously, you are closer to ita and Allyson than to Sean, so you feel more strongly about posts directed to them, which is how it should be.

This also makes perfect sense to me, and I should've taken it into account. I did get kinda riled up and defensive on ita and Allyson's part, and it is easier for me to understand Allyson's voice vs. Sean's.

We need a new Bitch thread.

The consensus seems to be "A Whole Different Vibe."

Other subject entirely for a moment: may we have a new Bitches, please?

I got the bitch thing.

There were six whole posts and seven minutes between the Sean and ita posts, and I think that's a lot of time.

Polgara, I think in retrospect most folks are thinking that was too much time. What happened in part (I think) was a certain amount of deference towards ita - to not fight her battles for her - that short circuited what would normally have been a quick response to Sean.