The whole thing is now this slightly loopy, crow's-eye-swooping-over-the-cornfield of western migration across North America from Plymouth Rock out across the Pacific to Hawaii.

It's a four-dimensional cultural object which you can spin on a variety of axes.

You, my friend, are the Master of Blurbs.

It seems more symphonic than operatic to me, despite the vocals. The constant weaving of materials and the motifs which recur and play off each other. And for all the influence the Beach Boys had on pop music, nobody really composes these discrete sections the way Brian does. He achieves tremendous effects by rubbing these different mixes against each other with the sudden shifts in tempo and sonic texture.

I think "rock opera" really connotes "symphony" the way you're using it here. I'm actually working on a High Hat article on this very thing, and comparing SMiLE to Blueberry Boat (with parts on The Tain, the Liars' last album, and Watt's new album). In it, I argue that "rock operas" can be song or album length and have certain rule-of-thumb characteristics, including a non-blues-based structure (no verse-chorus-verse-chorus-middle 8-chorus for these guys, usually), a coherent narrative (which may be difficult to decipher -- clarity isn't the point, story is), repeated motifs (which can be either lyrical or musical), and an ambitious length (i.e. more than 5 minutes). N.B. These characteristics aren't definitive - a song could arguably be a rock opera without exhibiting any of them - but descriptive.

Anyway, it seems that the indierockers are suddenly making good (by which I mean: literary-but-self-mocking lyrics with innovative music) rock operas, but maybe they've been there all along. I suspect that rock operas appeal to more underground musicians now, though, because a) it's become very cheap to indulge yourself in the studio and b) the only people interested in making indie rock these days are highly educated middle-class intellectual-types (as opposed to the halcyon punk & college rock days, when [as I perceive the scene] the musicians were a bit further removed from class).

Maybe you (and the other hangers-out here) could help me with good rock operas from the 60s and 70s. I have "A Quick One" and "In The Court of the Crimson King" on the positive side and Tommy plus the collected works of Yes and ELP on the negative side. I'm having a hard time thinking of more examples of good rock operas. And I always have Rick Wakeman to act as whipping boy for the bad ones.

He's actually never been a huge Beach Boy fan, stating that their post-hit sixties and early seventies work (so beloved by collector types) was overrated.

He gave Wild Honey an A+, too, and I think the Endless Summer hits compilation is on his basic library list. But he does (or did) have mixed feelings about them, as evidenced by his being underwhelmed by Pet Sounds but knocked out by Wild Honey.

That's pretty much how I feel, too. Not necessarily about those two, but in general: somewhat suspicious about the auteurist (if not the auteur's) claims about the Pet Sounds/Smile era, combined with annoyance at the devaluing of the hits period by many of those making the auteurist claims - similar to the dubious claims about Sgt. Pepper's clear superiority to all that yeah yeah yeah stuff.

That's the reductive version of the position, of course. Hayden, to use the local Brian Wilson as Auteur proponent, has never said anything (at least around here) about "Fun, Fun, Fun" being any less great just because BW expanded his palette for subsequent works. And he is on record as having some Sgt. P doubts (don't cross him about Revolver, although I can't imagine why someone wouldn't like Revolver. The Beach Boys stuff I like I really love, but unlike the Beatles or a personal fave like Richard Thompson the BB's music doesn't grab me in a way that makes me plow through mehs to get to Oh Wows!

All of which is a longwinded way of saying that all the raves haven't made me run out to get a copy of Smile (the way my reaction to Eleanor Friedberger's singing made me snap up a copy of Blueberry Boat), but I am looking forward to hearing it. More of a "you're slowly swaying me" conversion than Saul on the way to Damascus.

literary-but-self-mocking lyrics with innovative music

My favorite part of "My Dog Was Lost But Now He's Found" is when "I stood on the corner and called up the coroner" is followed by a rimshot.

Maybe you (and the other hangers-out here) could help me with good rock operas from the 60s and 70s. I have "A Quick One" and "In The Court of the Crimson King" on the positive side and Tommy plus the collected works of Yes and ELP on the negative side. I'm having a hard time thinking of more examples of good rock operas. And I always have Rick Wakeman to act as whipping boy for the bad ones.

Zen Arcade coheres somewhat as rock opera. At least as much as Quadrophenia.

Mike Watt's record about his Dad. The new Green Day record. Yoshimi by Flaming Lips. The Drive By Trucker record?

Here's a list of Original Rock Musicals - some of which might fall under rock opera. Heh - these are pretty goofy.

Pink Floyd's The Wall.

Neil Young's Greendale.

SF Sorrow by The Pretty Things.

Any number of Residents projects like God In Three Persons.

The Canon and Apocrypha of Rock Opera and Concept Rock

Some friends of mine did a rock opera a couple of years ago. The Giant Clam

Maybe you (and the other hangers-out here) could help me with good rock operas from the 60s and 70s.

The term makes me twitch almost as much as "compassionate conservative," and I don't know if these fit your criteria... but I'll throw "Street Hassle" (song, not album) and Funkentelechy versus the Placebo Syndrome into the ring. Could probably throw a few more George Clinton works in, but I'll go with that one.

Maybe you (and the other hangers-out here) could help me with good rock operas from the 60s and 70s.

IIRC, the original Jesus Christ Superstar album was promoted as a rock opera.

Heh, and according to Hec's link, I do remember correctly.

I'm glad they list Meat Loaf on the also-rans; maybe "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" is a rock operetta?

I'm having a hard time thinking of more examples of good rock operas.

I'm not familiar with them, but didn't Ray Davies and The Kinks do a ton of those in the early seventies? Or were they too "music hall" to be considered "rock opera"?

Glad to see the Crims fall on the side of good, even though I'd consider "In The Court" more of a song cycle than an opera. I actually think "Red" is almost more of a whole. That is if we're talking album and not song.

Thanks, y'all! That's some great material to work with.

Anybody got a better idea for a term to describe "indie rock opera"s? It's not all prog and art-rock doesn't really capture it. I'd use "teenage symphony to God" (TSG) but that seems fairly specific to Brian Wilson.

Just for the record, I love the Beach Boys singles, but Pet Sounds and Smile float my boat in a more complex way. I don't think Sgt. Pepper's is comparable to either Pet Sounds or Smile. Brian Wilson's musical genius (pre-breakdown, that is) is making each song and album only as lushly ornate as it needs to be, whereas the late period Beatles were gilding some fairly half-baked songs and ideas.