Mr. Serkis closed out the appearance, with Gollum doing Sinatra: "And now the end is near, and so we face the final curtain." And they are gone, like a hallucination.

Omigod, Jess, how cool was that? Sorry that you missed it doesn't seem to be nearly enough.

I knew it had to be "My Way"! What the frell else would Gollum sing, after all? ed. to add--Jess, kill 'em a lot.

I don't want to be watching them and thinking "he should totally have gone for Eowyn instead!"

Ummmm, I totally always had this thought while reading the books. I have to admit, I was a little irritated in FotR when she stood (rode?) in for Glorfindel. Thanks, PJ, for proving that the alternative was infinitely more irritating.

WROD on the place holder for all women and my destiny is to be a mother BS. What, so if she didn't know that they were going to have kids she wouldn't have turned around?

As my mother likes to say when I get going, "(smonster) took this class in Gender Issues and she's never gotten over it."

With that I have to acknowledge that the book royally tees me off at the end when Eowyn gives that whole speech about not needing to be a shield-maiden and learning that it's better to care for others. There goes all the groovy gender role subversion.

Hmm. Walking away from the computer now.

eta but not before I add that it's not just the gender stuff that bugs me, it's also some of the racial characterizations.

eata also socio-economic. but whatever. i pick the nits b/c i love it so much.

it's not just the gender stuff that bugs me, it's also some of the racial characterizations.

Snerk of the night: "Men of the West! Today, we stand! For Eurocentrism !"

Well, but Eowyn in the books was essentially suicidal. She was more like book-Boromir - loving feats of arms for themselves, rather than for what they defend like Faramir. Turning away from that attitude was a triumph, in the LotR moral system. The healing she goes through there, where she turns away from death toward life, I actually find moving.

Of course, it'd be nice if Tolkien had let her do both, like he does Faramir. But that's Tolkien for you. To his credit, he doesn't take any of her past deeds away - she's never chided for having taken down the Witch-King. That moment is heroic, and I've never gotten a disapproving vibe from Tolkien about it.

Well, Tolkien had a lot of reconcilling to do regarding all of those strong women in Norse sagas that he read with the non-existence of women (besides his mother, and she died young) in his world after being raised by a Catholic priest and then going into the nearly all-male academic world.

His women, both weak and strong are idealizations. I simply don't think he was capable of ever going beyond that.

::sigh:: I know.

amych: amyth leaned over and said to her neighbor at one point, Here come the suspicious brown-skinned people.

WROD on the place holder for all women and

What, so if she didn't know that they were going to

As my mother likes to say when I get going, "(smonster) took this class in Gender Issues and she's never gotten over it."

Okay, now we're getting to the anti-Arwen vibe that I object to. I agree, the schmoop factor does diminish it a little for me, and I understand the objection to the traditional role, but to be fair to JJRT and PJ, Eowyn is presented as a different path. But I saw the above issue (snerk) this way:

The child is symbolic of the way mortals achieve immortality. I don't get a sense of "Ooh, I haven't had any baybees!" from that sequence, but the child reminds her of the real mortal future with consequences with Aragorn, the child they will have together, the knitting together of their fates in the human world which is to come. All of that is tied into the imagery of the child that crystallizes her decision to turn away from the undying lands and follow her heart. It isn't an explicit snub at those of us who can't or won't have children in their lives. Even to us, children are still the future, whether we like it or not. :)

Liv is pretty and young and may have helped them sell the movie, and yes, she was probably too young and pretty and softly-lit. As I have said above, I don't think PJ could have offered me a convincing Arwen in this life, but who knows what film making technology will bring. I may yet live to see her. I wouldn't have thought twenty years ago that what I saw yesterday would ever have been possible. I have lived in terror of LotR being brought to the screen for many years.

Mooom!!! JS is mellowing my harsh!!! AND earworming me with schmoopy Whitney Houston!

t /joke indicating i have neither time nor inclination to discuss further right now

/joke indicating i have neither time nor inclination to discuss further right now

Hee. Fair enough. I mean, discussing gender politics in Lord of the Rings can be tiresome enough in a pleasant room, with nice alcohol to hand. Which I'd be glad to do some time.

I'm really still in the glow of the movie (did I mention I see it again tomorrow?) and don't much want to get into that stuff either. I did want to at least throw it on the table. JRRT may be an old dead white guy and definitely a product of his times. He's still a treasure.

Edited: too many buts for my literary aesthetic.