Gandalf the White was damn scary at times. He'd never dance with hobbits at a birthday party. But, Gandalf the Grey probably wouldn't have given Denethor the smackdown or taken control of Minas Tirith. And that's a distinction I never got from reading the books.

I like Gandalf the White better, because he didn't have a silly pointy hat.

Gandalf the Grey probably wouldn't have given Denethor the smackdown or taken control of Minas Tirith.

Well, they kinda expanded Gandalf's taking charge and Denethor's asshattedness for the movie. Denethor was a calculating cold fish in the books (and with more justification, which I still hope they'll clarify because why else bring up Palantir, except as a plot contrivance to get Pippin to Minas Tirith), but he came across as somewhat likeable in a gruff way, despite his smackdown of Faramir.

In the books Denethor is a proud man from a long, proud line of men who have done a dirty job of keeping Gondor going. Yeah, they were only Stewards, supposed to be holding the throne for the King, but when all the resources you've got say the King ain't coming home, a Steward is allowed to think Steward=King. And then to hear that, oh, wait, there is a king, he's on his way, time to brush the dust off the throne and get ready to stand to one side, sorry, old man, but thanks for all your hard work.

Add in that Sauron playing games with Denethor's mind, and I begin to feel a little sorry for him.

Add in that Sauron playing games with Denethor's mind, and I begin to feel a little sorry for him.

There is that, but he did bring it about himself, in his pride and despair (2 of the greatest sins in Tolkien's mythology). He was never pictured as likable in any way, except for the love he had for Boromir. He apparently had an immediate disliking for Aragorn (who was serving Denethor's father under the assumed name of Thorongil) and Gandalf.

He was never pictured as likable in any way, except for the love he had for Boromir.

Oh, I think unlike in the movie he showed true, non-condescending affection towards Pippin. That's what I mean by gruff but likeable. I think he showed off some of the leadership qualities that Gandalf praised in the book, whatever their personal disagreements.

He was never Theoden likeable, but I thought he had moments where he was likeable. The singing scene in the book is much different in my memory of it, at least.

He was kinder to Pippin in the books, and ready to give his all defending Gondor almost up to the end. Both book-Gandalf and book-Aragorn say good things about him, if I recall, though admittedly the subtext is "and then he turned into an asshat."

I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.

I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.

And he really didn't lose it completely until Faramir came back mostly dead. I don't remember him giving up the defense of MT - just that he wasn't going to be sticking around for the party.

I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.

I'd go along with that, but I still think the pride and despair were shown as significant flaws that lessened the respect owed him.

I don't remember him giving up the defense of MT - just that he wasn't going to be sticking around for the party.

He definitely did give up defense when he saw the Black Ships of the Corsairs in the palantir, causing him to assume that all hope was lostand that Sauron had captured the ring. I'll look up the passage:

From the chapter "The Siege of Gondor", as Faramir was suffering his fever n the White Tower, we have this

Men came to the door crying for the Lord of the City. 'Nay, I will not come down,' he said. 'I must stay beside my son. He might still speak before the end. But that is near. Follow whom you will, even the Grey Fool, though his hope has failed. Here I stay."

He definitely did give up defense when he saw the Black Ships of the Corsairs in the palantir, causing him to assume that all hope was lostand that Sauron had captured the ring. I'll look up the passage:

I find that significantly less than actively trying to send the troops home as he did in the movie. I think I understand why they made the change (although this is a rare case where they made a character less conflicted rather than more), but I think it's a significant shift from the book.

And again, the lack of the palantir as an explanation makes him even more simplistically crazy/villainous.