Gandalf the Grey is more fun to *watch* than Gandalf the White, too.
Well, except when he goes medieval. Then he's fun no matter how bleached he is...
Tell me more good stuff about me.
Kaylee ,'The Message'
LotR - The Return of the King: "We named the *dog* 'Strider'".
Frodo: Please, what does it always mean, this... this "Aragorn"? Elrond: That's his name. Aragorn, son of Arathorn. Aragorn: I like "Strider." Elrond: We named the *dog* "Strider".
A discussion of Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King. If you're a pervy hobbit fancier, this is the place for you.
Una - Mar 02, 2004 4:03:14 pm PST #2135 of 3902
when i die, please bake my ashes into a brick and use me to hit fascists.
Kathy A - Mar 02, 2004 4:14:12 pm PST #2136 of 3902
We're very stretchy. - Connie Neil
Gandalf the White was damn scary at times. He'd never dance with hobbits at a birthday party. But, Gandalf the Grey probably wouldn't have given Denethor the smackdown or taken control of Minas Tirith. And that's a distinction I never got from reading the books.
§ ita § - Mar 02, 2004 4:49:36 pm PST #2137 of 3902
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.
I like Gandalf the White better, because he didn't have a silly pointy hat.
Frankenbuddha - Mar 02, 2004 5:09:55 pm PST #2138 of 3902
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"
Gandalf the Grey probably wouldn't have given Denethor the smackdown or taken control of Minas Tirith.
Well, they kinda expanded Gandalf's taking charge and Denethor's asshattedness for the movie. Denethor was a calculating cold fish in the books (and with more justification, which I still hope they'll clarify because why else bring up Palantir, except as a plot contrivance to get Pippin to Minas Tirith), but he came across as somewhat likeable in a gruff way, despite his smackdown of Faramir.
Connie Neil - Mar 02, 2004 5:17:34 pm PST #2139 of 3902
brillig
In the books Denethor is a proud man from a long, proud line of men who have done a dirty job of keeping Gondor going. Yeah, they were only Stewards, supposed to be holding the throne for the King, but when all the resources you've got say the King ain't coming home, a Steward is allowed to think Steward=King. And then to hear that, oh, wait, there is a king, he's on his way, time to brush the dust off the throne and get ready to stand to one side, sorry, old man, but thanks for all your hard work.
Add in that Sauron playing games with Denethor's mind, and I begin to feel a little sorry for him.
Jeff Mejia - Mar 02, 2004 5:32:01 pm PST #2140 of 3902
"Don't think of yourself as an organic pain collector racing towards oblivion." Dogbert to Dilbert
Add in that Sauron playing games with Denethor's mind, and I begin to feel a little sorry for him.
There is that, but he did bring it about himself, in his pride and despair (2 of the greatest sins in Tolkien's mythology). He was never pictured as likable in any way, except for the love he had for Boromir. He apparently had an immediate disliking for Aragorn (who was serving Denethor's father under the assumed name of Thorongil) and Gandalf.
Frankenbuddha - Mar 02, 2004 5:40:49 pm PST #2141 of 3902
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"
He was never pictured as likable in any way, except for the love he had for Boromir.
Oh, I think unlike in the movie he showed true, non-condescending affection towards Pippin. That's what I mean by gruff but likeable. I think he showed off some of the leadership qualities that Gandalf praised in the book, whatever their personal disagreements.
He was never Theoden likeable, but I thought he had moments where he was likeable. The singing scene in the book is much different in my memory of it, at least.
Katie M - Mar 02, 2004 5:43:11 pm PST #2142 of 3902
I was charmed (albeit somewhat perplexed) by the fannish sensibility of many of the music choices -- it's like the director was trying to vid Canada. --loligo on the Olympic Opening Ceremonies
He was kinder to Pippin in the books, and ready to give his all defending Gondor almost up to the end. Both book-Gandalf and book-Aragorn say good things about him, if I recall, though admittedly the subtext is "and then he turned into an asshat."
I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.
Frankenbuddha - Mar 02, 2004 5:48:51 pm PST #2143 of 3902
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"
I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.
And he really didn't lose it completely until Faramir came back mostly dead. I don't remember him giving up the defense of MT - just that he wasn't going to be sticking around for the party.
Jeff Mejia - Mar 02, 2004 6:10:26 pm PST #2144 of 3902
"Don't think of yourself as an organic pain collector racing towards oblivion." Dogbert to Dilbert
I suppose I think of book-Denethor as not a particularly good man, but as a man worthy of respect, if that makes sense. Movie-Denethor clearly didn't deserve respect.
I'd go along with that, but I still think the pride and despair were shown as significant flaws that lessened the respect owed him.
I don't remember him giving up the defense of MT - just that he wasn't going to be sticking around for the party.
He definitely did give up defense when he saw the Black Ships of the Corsairs in the palantir, causing him to assume that all hope was lostand that Sauron had captured the ring. I'll look up the passage:
From the chapter "The Siege of Gondor", as Faramir was suffering his fever n the White Tower, we have this
Men came to the door crying for the Lord of the City. 'Nay, I will not come down,' he said. 'I must stay beside my son. He might still speak before the end. But that is near. Follow whom you will, even the Grey Fool, though his hope has failed. Here I stay."