Heh. Good point, Theo. I guess the thing with Arwen is that if she looks so much younger than Aragorn--even though she is much, much older--then it 1) lessens their relationship a bit, in my eyes, and 2) plays into some icky gender politics about her being the dewy-eyed damsel in distress, which I don't think is actually what Tolkein intended.

But really, I just want her to feel worthy of Aragorn's love. I want it to feel right that he can't love Eowyn but he can love Arwen, and I don't get that when she's such an empty character.

She was just nothing -- soft sighs and youthful but uncompelling pretty. I dunno -- give me Claudia Black, or something.

Gah! That would have been... something. But I'm with ita on this one: Liv Tyler is for me the one unmitigated casting mistake.

I do think they tried to make her more of a do-er, but all they could come up with was make her a fighter, and the single shot of Liv Tyler doing some practice fighting in the DVD extras was enough to convince me that would have been disastrous as well. Making her Halbarad would have worked, I think.

Nobody seems to be complaining about Legolas's youthfulness....

Legolas looks timeless to me. With the lighting Liv got, Judi Dench would look like she was on the other side of puberty. You give me someone who looks a) beautiful and b) somewhere around thirty c) like forever, and I'm good. Liv -- NSM. She looks like a girl. Legolas looks like a young man, with a large dose of unreality.

I'm thinking of most of the other elves -- Haldir doesn't look like a boy, either.

Yeah. Claudia Black, much as I adore her and think she's sex on a stick, is not pretty enough or young-looking enough to be Arwen.

The problem is that Arwen in the books *is* an empty character. So PJ was left with a kind of untenable choice - either he's stuck with Arwen (who gets to sit next to her father, sew a banner, get married, and give Frodo her place on the boat to Valinor - does she even have *lines* in the book before RotK?) or he's stuck making changes that will make the fandom shriek.

To explain my last post a bit:

I guess the thing with Arwen is that if she looks so much younger than Aragorn--even though she is much, much older--then it 1) lessens their relationship a bit, in my eyes

What I mean by that is that one of the aspects of their relationship that I find most compelling is how her love for Aragorn grew as he grew up. When they first met, he was so young, and obviously smitten with her, but it took her a while longer to realize that he was becoming the man she would fall in love with. I see her as being youthful, yes, but also mature, having gained some wisdom after 3,000 years in Middle-Earth. I do get some maturity and wisdom from Legolas (even if the wisdom comes mostly in the form of platitudes and stating-the-obvious; thank you, Exposition Man!), but not from Arwen.

I do get some maturity and wisdom from Legolas (even if the wisdom comes mostly in the form of platitudes and stating-the-obvious; thank you, Exposition Man!), but not from Arwen.

This quite precisely. I was snipping about not getting teen love in Natter, and that looks like precisely what she's suffering from.

(I finally started watching the Primetime RotK special, and laughed to see Orlando mocking Legolas sensing things all the time -- and nodded my head at the assertion that since he had not that much to say, he had to be elfy in every motion and stillness -- was Liv at all elfy, other than sighing through every line, which was kind of her thing alone, since the rest could breathe just fine?)

Yeah. Claudia Black, much as I adore her and think she's sex on a stick, is not pretty enough or young-looking enough to be Arwen.

You haven't seen her in the flesh, Katie. She's jaw-dropping. I do think she could do it, but it would have been a very different character. On the other hand, she would have brought a maturity and wisdom to the role that Liv isn't really capable of, and I think would have really convinced me that someone of Aragorn's experience would have found her compelling.

Liv as Arwen isn't compelling.

and the single shot of Liv Tyler doing some practice fighting in the DVD extras was enough to convince me that would have been disastrous as well.

True enough, Consuela. But I can think of a few ways to make her less object, more subject, that don't necessarily involve fighting. For one thing, she could have brought Anduril to Aragorn, and we could easily have done without the Arwen-is-dying subplot. I would have liked to see her more responsible for Aragorn's deciding to accept his destiny and become King.

since he had not that much to say, he had to be elfy in every motion and stillness

And my god, was he ever. He takes my breath away, even when he's just standing in the background looking intense.

You haven't seen her in the flesh, Katie. She's jaw-dropping.

Well, I wouldn't've seen her in the flesh as Arwen either. (Though I take your point, and I can totally believe it.)

I do think she could do it, but it would have been a very different character. On the other hand, she would have brought a maturity and wisdom to the role that Liv isn't really capable of, and I think would have really convinced me that someone of Aragorn's experience would have found her compelling.

Well, that's true. Honestly - and I haven't seen the movie yet, so my opinion may change - I never really expected to get Aragorn's love for Arwen. It's just a required plot point for me. So it probably bothers me less in theory that Arwen isn't all that compelling, because I never expected her to be compelling.

(I mean, practically speaking Claudia Black as Arwen would've pushed me over the edge, because I would've spent the entire trilogy thinking "just shoot them all, dammit! And buy some leather!")