Yeah. Claudia Black, much as I adore her and think she's sex on a stick, is not pretty enough or young-looking enough to be Arwen.

The problem is that Arwen in the books *is* an empty character. So PJ was left with a kind of untenable choice - either he's stuck with Arwen (who gets to sit next to her father, sew a banner, get married, and give Frodo her place on the boat to Valinor - does she even have *lines* in the book before RotK?) or he's stuck making changes that will make the fandom shriek.

To explain my last post a bit:

I guess the thing with Arwen is that if she looks so much younger than Aragorn--even though she is much, much older--then it 1) lessens their relationship a bit, in my eyes

What I mean by that is that one of the aspects of their relationship that I find most compelling is how her love for Aragorn grew as he grew up. When they first met, he was so young, and obviously smitten with her, but it took her a while longer to realize that he was becoming the man she would fall in love with. I see her as being youthful, yes, but also mature, having gained some wisdom after 3,000 years in Middle-Earth. I do get some maturity and wisdom from Legolas (even if the wisdom comes mostly in the form of platitudes and stating-the-obvious; thank you, Exposition Man!), but not from Arwen.

I do get some maturity and wisdom from Legolas (even if the wisdom comes mostly in the form of platitudes and stating-the-obvious; thank you, Exposition Man!), but not from Arwen.

This quite precisely. I was snipping about not getting teen love in Natter, and that looks like precisely what she's suffering from.

(I finally started watching the Primetime RotK special, and laughed to see Orlando mocking Legolas sensing things all the time -- and nodded my head at the assertion that since he had not that much to say, he had to be elfy in every motion and stillness -- was Liv at all elfy, other than sighing through every line, which was kind of her thing alone, since the rest could breathe just fine?)

Yeah. Claudia Black, much as I adore her and think she's sex on a stick, is not pretty enough or young-looking enough to be Arwen.

You haven't seen her in the flesh, Katie. She's jaw-dropping. I do think she could do it, but it would have been a very different character. On the other hand, she would have brought a maturity and wisdom to the role that Liv isn't really capable of, and I think would have really convinced me that someone of Aragorn's experience would have found her compelling.

Liv as Arwen isn't compelling.

and the single shot of Liv Tyler doing some practice fighting in the DVD extras was enough to convince me that would have been disastrous as well.

True enough, Consuela. But I can think of a few ways to make her less object, more subject, that don't necessarily involve fighting. For one thing, she could have brought Anduril to Aragorn, and we could easily have done without the Arwen-is-dying subplot. I would have liked to see her more responsible for Aragorn's deciding to accept his destiny and become King.

since he had not that much to say, he had to be elfy in every motion and stillness

And my god, was he ever. He takes my breath away, even when he's just standing in the background looking intense.

You haven't seen her in the flesh, Katie. She's jaw-dropping.

Well, I wouldn't've seen her in the flesh as Arwen either. (Though I take your point, and I can totally believe it.)

I do think she could do it, but it would have been a very different character. On the other hand, she would have brought a maturity and wisdom to the role that Liv isn't really capable of, and I think would have really convinced me that someone of Aragorn's experience would have found her compelling.

Well, that's true. Honestly - and I haven't seen the movie yet, so my opinion may change - I never really expected to get Aragorn's love for Arwen. It's just a required plot point for me. So it probably bothers me less in theory that Arwen isn't all that compelling, because I never expected her to be compelling.

(I mean, practically speaking Claudia Black as Arwen would've pushed me over the edge, because I would've spent the entire trilogy thinking "just shoot them all, dammit! And buy some leather!")

Arwen at Helm's Deep. I don't know. I thought Haldir was funnylooking and slightly icky, so I would have been just as glad to get rid of him. (Also, every time an elf is killed, a mundane is sitting there wondering, Wait, I thought they were immortal...?) Could Arwen have been at Helm's Deep without making me crazy? I don't know -- maybe if played by a different, harder actor.

Thinking unconventionally, the ways I would probably heal the Arwen Problem would revolve around the armies of Galadrim. We know the Galadrim go to war in the books (although we don't really know it till later, and the movies rightly cut out any mention of Dol Guldur), so why not have, say, instead of her deciding to head west in TTT, she takes a small army to Lorien, and marshals the Lorien forces that remain after Haldir heads out. (WHY is Haldir not a brunette? Craig Parker is cute enough; no need to make him look like Barbra Streisand.)

In ROTK, this scenario would mean that Arwen is leading an army of elves to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields -- which means there would need to be an in-advance muster of Gondor after all -- which totally flies in the face of canon, but at least it gives her a role to play, keeps her busy and away from Strider until such time as a dramatic reunion can occur, and fulfills the spirit of the Last Alliance.

Also: Slow motion completely disallowed when she is on screen. Also vaseline filters. If Legolas can take harsh light, so too should Arwen. I don't think they needed somebody older, but they needed somebody with gravity to her. (Which often translates in movies to older, but needn't necessarily.)

For entertainment, I am going back through old reviews of teh trilogy movies and books. Elvis Mitchell sure brought in the (affectionate) snark, man:

Mr. Jackson apparently feels that the way to keep each of the fighting groups separate in the audience's minds is to provide them with hairstyles reminiscent of 1970's bands. The hobbits all have heads of tossled curls — they're like members of Peter Frampton's group. Aragorn and Boromir have the long, unwashed bushes of Aerosmith, and the flaxen-maned Legolas has the fallen-angel look of one of the Allman Brothers. (The tubby, bilious and bearded Gimli could be a roadie for any of them.) "Fellowship" plays like a sword-and-sorcery epic produced by VH-1. Together, they rock against the forces of Sauron — the evil wizard who created the Ring that Frodo holds.

[Elijah] Wood's light, tremulous voice for Frodo and earnest, pointed face offer decency. He sometimes seems to possess the visage that Michael Jackson has spent a lot of money having sculptured by man-made means.

battles between the forces of good and evil — a word from which British stage actors can extract at least three syllables.

He sometimes seems to possess the visage that Michael Jackson has spent a lot of money having sculptured by man-made means.

This is very very true.