Thanks for the info Kathy!

I'm really confused by this. It had every right to exist and was in fact very important, moreso than the first chapter.

Wow, I don't agree. IMHO it bled all the tension from the rest of the book. Two of the characters in it meant nothing to the rest of the book, and the third's actions in the book would have carried a lot more weight without all the telegraphing. But, my opinion.

But it might not be telegraphing -- it might be a justification for a revelation in the next book.

Wow, I don't agree. IMHO it bled all the tension from the rest of the book. Two of the characters in it meant nothing to the rest of the book, and the third's actions in the book would have carried a lot more weight without all the telegraphing. But, my opinion.

Interesting, Knut. At the read-and-post LJ folks loved Chapter 2 because of the backstory, and (possible) plot misdirect. Also there was some feeling that it's setting stuff up for the last book.

Wow. I totally disagree with you, Knut! I think the book would be much weaker without Chapter 2. I really enjoyed the fact that it showed us these particular adults NOT from Harry's POV, and I think that Snape was probably bluffing throughout most of that scene. I loved seeing him interacting with Bellatrix, and it gave me a much clearer picture of what it's like for him among the Deatheaters. I felt that Chapter 2 fed into the character development of both Snape and Draco, which I'd not really dared hope for, and was delighted by in this book. I shall be gobsmacked if it turns out he isn't actually loyal to Dumbledore - I think that Chapter 2 makes it look like he's villainous, but I totally think he's loyal to the Order during this scene, and that he continues to be loyal to the Order throughout. We don't actually know what Draco's been told to do in Chapter 2, and I must confess that I initially supposed it was to attack Harry - it was only when Ron was poisoned that I realised Draco was trying to kill Dumbledore, and then I realised that Snape was going to have to kill Dumbledore to keep Draco safe. And the argument that Hagrid over heard in the forest, between Dumbledore and Snape, was surely about this - JKR has a history of misleading readers in this way, and I totally read that scene as being misinterpreted by the trio to fit in with their preconceptions about Snape. I'll be very surprised if that argument wasn't about Snape protesting what Dumbledore is asking him to do - ie continuing to do the whole undercover-with-the-deatheaters thing up to and including killing Dumbledore. (Who is quite possibly dying from his injury, and certainly seems to have done himself considerable further injury by drinking the green stuff.) Even after killing Dumbledore, Snape doesn't hurt anyone else. imho he's still loyal to the Order, even though the Order doesn't seem to realise it; he goes out of his way to NOT hurt Harry when Harry's trying to hit him with unforgiveable curses, he gives Harry advice on duelling and he totally loses his shit when Harry calls him a coward. Er. So, in conclusion - Yay for Chapter 2! imho. Um. YMClearlyV. (I'm still strongly of the suspicion that Snape was in love with Lily Evans, thus explaining the fact that realising he'd caused her death was 'the greatest regret of his life'. Snape slags off James Potter frequently, but he's never disparaged Lily. We know that they both studied Potions, and that they were both very good. We know that she was, in addition to being pretty, cheeky and in Slughorn's opinion would have made a good Slytherin. Sure, it's implausible that causing James Potter's death was the greatest regret of Snape's life - but causing Lily's? That's another kettle of fish.)

I'm with P-C and Fay actually. I couldn't figure the point of chapter 1 except as unnecessary exposition, but loved chapter 2.

I also agree with Fay on Snape. Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask - has Harry ever been right about something that Dumbledore's been wrong about? I can't think of a single occasion. And will be likely throw the book across the room if it happens in this case.

I am Fay in re: to Ch 2, but feel that Ch1 was kind of a weak beginning.

Ch 1 wasn't anything like as punchy or attention-getting as Ch 2. I think it was good to have the book NOT start the same way that all the previous books have done, and I think that it opens things up by giving us an overview of what's going on in the adult world, and in the muggle world. I rather enjoyed it, but it was Ch 2 that really grabbed me.

ita sez: But it might not be telegraphing -- it might be a justification for a revelation in the next book.

Hec said: At the read-and-post LJ folks loved Chapter 2 because of the backstory, and (possible) plot misdirect. Also there was some feeling that it's setting stuff up for the last book.

My feeling is, if it doesn't work within the context of this book, it doesn't work. It's unsightly and I felt very much lectured at. Maybe it's a function of this being aimed at younger readers, but my feeling was "I know this already. I know that Snape is supposed to be a double agent and that everything he does has to have a justification to both sides, neither of which will truly trust him. And because Rowling is calling my attention to it, it's clear that this is going to be the crux of the book; ergo, Snape will betray Dumbledore and the school."

I've seen some folks theorizing that Dumbledore isn't truly dead, and that this was all part of the plan, but I doubt it. I think Rowling, despite her tendency to exposit at length, is a better storyteller than that, and has more respect for her readers. I might be wrong, but if she's going to cheat on Dumbledore's death she may as well bring Sirius and James and Lily back too, and Ginny can bring Cedric to Ron and Hermione's wedding, and Dobby can lead the socialist house-elf revolution while Buckbeak and the unicorn make doe-eyes at each other.

A big part of Rowling's success is that she doesn't lie to kids. She tells them the world can be a really rotten place no matter who you are or what you do. I think that to take back what's happened would be dishonest, which was why I liked the ending so much. It went beyond the consolatory "next-year-at-Hogwarts" formula and pointed the characters into the great unknown. Brave choice, I think, since I suspect some readers will be reluctant to follow.

I may well be wrong, but I hope I'm not. If the series ends badly I'm going to feel like I wasted a lot of shelf space on it. These books are thick!

Oh, I don't think that Dumbledore's going to pull a Gandalf. I mean, okay, there's the whole Phoenix thing, so it's conceivable, but I think that runs counter to what he stands for and I think that it goes against the kind of story she's telling; the mentor figure dies so that the boy can do the whole Rites of Passage becoming a man thing. But I totally think that Dumbledore knew he was going to die - he's spent the whole book preparing Harry to take over when he's gone, helping him understand his enemy rather than teaching him useful skills. I think Snape has told him about the Unbreakable Vow and that he's making damned sure that Snape keeps to it. I don't know whether it will turn out that Dumbledore was actually dying slowly of his injuries already, but either way I think he knows he's going to die and that he's consciously accepted this as a worthwhile sacrifice. It puts Snape in an untenable position, but it really consolidates his position with the Deatheaters, and I think that's what the argument is about - Snape saying that D is asking too much, taking too much for granted etc.

I don't think that there's any question of JKR lying to the kids, but I think that Chapter 2 misleads them, in the same way that all the Mad Eye Moody stuff misleads them. All the data that tells us Snape is a good guy is right there in plain view, but because Harry still doesn't trust him, and because he clearly doesn't LIKE Harry, we're supposed to assume he's actually a villain. That's what Harry assumes. But I think Harry's wrong. Much like the Mad Eye Moody stuff, where there were clear pointers that he was NOT a good guy - but because he was nice to Harry, because the child he transfigures into a ferret and beats to a pulp is Draco, Harry's rival, Harry thinks he's a good egg.