You guys had a riot? On account of me? A real riot?

Jayne ,'Jaynestown'


We're Literary 2: To Read Makes Our Speaking English Good  

There's more to life than watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No. Really, there is! Honestly! Here's a place for Buffistas to come and discuss what it is they're reading, their favorite authors and poets. "Geez. Crack a book sometime."


Calli - Nov 05, 2004 9:13:37 am PST #6271 of 10002
I must obey the inscrutable exhortations of my soul—Calvin and Hobbs

I have a crossdressing cousin who does it at least as part of a rejection of the feminine norm.

Cross-dressing is a socio-political statement and/or eroticized?

I mean, some people play music because they want to make a political statement. Some people do it because they love the process of making music. Some people do it to get laid. Some people do it because music is an intrinsic part of who they are. I could imagine cross-dressing as having at least as many reasons.

I don't know as much about cross-dressing as I do about transgender stuff

Thank you anyway, Kate. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss things to see if they fell in your area of knowledge.


§ ita § - Nov 05, 2004 9:15:54 am PST #6272 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

I could imagine cross-dressing as having at least as many reasons.

I think it's pretty sure. You're going to encounter men who just plain like the feel of wearing skirts, women who think tuxes look better on them, etc, etc -- are you looking at crossdressing as a whole, or just the erotic part?

Also, are you looking at partial crossdressing? The man in the business suit and the frilly panties? The girl in y-fronts under her skirt?


Calli - Nov 05, 2004 9:20:53 am PST #6273 of 10002
I must obey the inscrutable exhortations of my soul—Calvin and Hobbs

I'm looking at cross-dressing as a whole, I think.

Huh. I hadn't even thought about partial cross-dressing. Yes, sure, I'd be interested in that, too, I think.

I was thinking of trying to write a story that would have a cross-dresser as a character, and figured it would be a good thing to do the research and not just have a To Wong Foo rip off. So I thought, ok, get a book or two, maybe a cultural study and a biography, and learn something. But, as with most things involving humans, 'tis complex.

I appreciate everyone's comments on the topic. They're helping me figure out just what the heck I'm looking for, which should be very useful. Thanks!


§ ita § - Nov 05, 2004 9:27:23 am PST #6274 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Unfortunately I have no answers. But I'm good with questions.

While we're kinda on the tip, maybe here's a better place to ask about references on gender identity (Kate?). I've been reading a bit about various physical gender...uhh...unconventionalities, IAS (partial and complete) and the like, and was wondering about the psychological components, but know not where to look.


Nutty - Nov 05, 2004 11:20:03 am PST #6275 of 10002
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

ita, you're interested in phenotypically intersex people? Some sources:

Dreger, A. (2003). Notes on the Treatment of Intersex. Intersex Society of North America. [link] This is an article about the surgery-centered model (pick a sex, make the kid as much like that sex as possible) and the patient-centered model (hey, when you're ready, decide what sex you want to be) of treatment of intersex children (all types).

Sax, Leonard. (2002) How Common is Intersex? A Response to Anne Fausto-Sterling. Journal of Sex Research. [link] Sax, Fausto-Sterling, and Blackless are the big three names in current intersex research right now.

And here's a law approach: Hermer, Laura. (2001). Surgical Revision of Intersex Children. [link]

There's also an interesting film called "First Do No Harm", put out by ISNA, involving interviews with adults who were assigned to sexes in childhood, and a rountable of psychologists, parents, and intersex adults. It's a strongly editorial film (as you might guess), but it addresses psychological outcome directly (which a lot of surgical approaches seem to fail to do).


§ ita § - Nov 05, 2004 11:49:37 am PST #6276 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Thanks.

Do those dwell on the psychological aspects?

eta: Because I'm finding lots of stuff from a phenotypical angle, and am interested now in people who feel they're the wrong gender.


Nutty - Nov 05, 2004 11:50:42 am PST #6277 of 10002
"Mister Spock is on his fanny, sir. Reports heavy damage."

#1 and #3, yes, (#1 moreso). The video most of all.

ETA: Discovery Health also has an hour-long video segment about congenital adrenal hyperplasia (girl with boyish sex-parts), which you might be able to find at a library. It follows a family that ends up going for the surgical approach, and shows the decision-making that goes into it all, and the parents' angst about choosing.


Dani - Nov 05, 2004 3:07:50 pm PST #6278 of 10002
I believe vampires are the world's greatest golfers

ita, one book I've heard a lot about is As Nature Made Him. It's a very sad story, not least of all b/c the subject of the bio recently killed himself.

[ETA but I just realized it's not what you're looking for, since David Reimer was born with unambigous male genitalia that were damaged during circumcision.]


§ ita § - Nov 05, 2004 3:10:08 pm PST #6279 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Thanks Nutty and Dani.

The surreal thing about Middlesex was that there was no gender dysmorphia at all -- just a change in clothes, hair and walking, switch up some language, but he wasn't a girly boy or a boyish girl. Okay, maybe not the surreal thing, but one that made me wonder about the reality of it all.


§ ita § - Nov 05, 2004 3:11:24 pm PST #6280 of 10002
Well not canonically, no, but this is transformative fiction.

Actually, Dani, that is precisely what I'm interested in -- what makes a boy feel like a boy, and a girl like a girl. How did he know he was wrong?

I think I've seen a TV show on that case, and had forgotten the name of the book.