Mal's change of heart could have been achieved with the death and destruction of anything that had been shown to be close to him, but it didn't have to be a show regular.

Totally. Book didn't *have* to die to spark Mal's change; I just figure that, since Book *did* die, that was the plot-related reason for it.

I figured Book's death was meant to be the putative catalyst behind Mal's change of heart, such as it was.

Yes, this. I felt if moved the plot along whereas Wash's death didn't really. Except for the emotional impact on Zoe and then the crew. It felt like a gut punch but I don't think it was intended as an insult to Firefly fans.

I am VERY unhappy that Wash is dead, but I agree that we would be less likely to get him back. . . and then Book's death -- I also REALLY wanted to know his backstory -- it's just frustrating.

Now, I am sure that there is a way in which Book's backstory can be told -- well, maybe I just hope that it could be relevant to another future Firefly movie because I really want to know it.

Kate P. once again speaks for me on this. Part of what made Firefly so great, to me, was the entire ensemble. Whereas Buffy and Angel were named after their leads, and it was very much their show, Firefly and Serenity are named after the ship, and by extension, the crew.

As much as I love Willow and Giles and the Scoobies as a whole, had any of them died I would have never thought "It's just not Buffy anymore." Same with the MoG and Angel. But without Wash and Book, any future Firefly/Serenity projects seem like they will be incomplete.

Joss did say in an interview, when asked about the deaths, that in his first draft everyone survived, but he felt that lessened the impact of the final battle. That it just made it "30 minutes of noise". Which I can understand from the PoV of a non-fan. They're not going to have the attachment to these characters that we do, so the tension is going to be lower. Wash's death, in particular, wakes the larger audience up and makes them think "Wow, all of these people could die."

The problem for me, and I'm sure many others, is that we didn't need the tension ratcheted up. We were already invested. As I said before, I shut down emotionally during the final battle because I could not allow myself to care anymore. I went from "Oh my God, this is tense!" to "Why is Joss doing this?" It was just too much and I was thrown out of the story because of it.

I was another one those people who left the theatre feeling burned out instead of elated.

Ah. I didn't need the tension ratcheted, but I appreciated it. It changed the last thirty minutes from a technical exercise (informing the universe, ending the chasing of River) into something with personal stakes.

It felt balls to the walls, and I liked it. One of the things I've appreciated about the Jossverse is that characters I love may die, and by Kalshane's lights, I reacted like a non-fan. I'd felt we'd had our token death of a little-used character in the movie, everyone's safe, the stakes are more intellectual and then WHAM.

I left the movie relieved (Zoe wasn't dead) and happy and sad. Every time AT crossed my field of vision I muttered (or sometimes said aloud) "I can't believe he killed you." And when Joss walked by, I shook my head at him.

It was manipulative, but that's another reason I show up for Whedon. He's kinda good at it, and he achieved his stated goals with me.

It was manipulative, but that's another reason I show up for Whedon. He's kinda good at it, and he achieved his stated goals with me.

Yeah. I think he did with me, too. I loved the film. I was excited and happy and sad. I still feel a little hole where Wash's character used to be but honestly, the gamut of emotions was achieved with the movie. I can't say I'm disappointed in any way. Or even angry. Or bitter. Just a little sad.

Except for the fact that the series was cancelled. That bitter may lessen a bit but it will never truly go away for me.

The problem for me, and I'm sure many others, is that we didn't need the tension ratcheted up. We were already invested. As I said before, I shut down emotionally during the final battle because I could not allow myself to care anymore. I went from "Oh my God, this is tense!" to "Why is Joss doing this?" It was just too much and I was thrown out of the story because of it.

I agreed with you then, but after seeing the film again last night, not so much. I think knowing what was going to happen, that no one would die after Wash, helped me enjoy the film more. Seeing Zoe get cut and Simon shot still hurt, but I didn't shut down like I did when I didn't know what their fate would be.

ITA with ita. Book's death felt very Obi-Wan-ish - that is, almost inevitable - because I felt Joss was going to kill someone. It was sad, but it didn't surprise me when I got spoiled for it.

Even knowing about it, Wash hurt a lot, but, because of the placement in the movie, was hugely effective in ratcheting the tension (not to a gratuitous degree, IMO - but in light of Jon B's post, being spoiled may have accounted for a huge part of that). The people I saw it with (who were recent FIREFLYers) were massively shocked, but they liked it a lot too.

I agreed with you then, but after seeing the film again last night, not so much. I think knowing what was going to happen, that no one would die after Wash, helped me enjoy the film more. Seeing Zoe get cut and Simon shot still hurt, but I didn't shut down like I did when I didn't know what their fate would be.

Well, I'm in the same boat. On my second viewing, knowing what was going to happen, I was able to relax and enjoy the film (outside of the horrified shrieks from the people who hadn't seen it before). I know I'm going to enjoy seeing it again Friday night, though as I said upthread, I'm feeling kind of guilty in a wierd way about inflicting it upon my friends who haven't seen it yet but loved Firefly.

Yeah, I think the moans and shrieks from the audience last night were more painful to me than seeing the actual impaling.