Yeah, after my "Oh no! Wash!" my next thought was "This doesn't mean you can kill Zoe, you know..."

And sort of like thinking about the Scoobies mourning Buffy after The Gift, it's Zoe's loss that guts me most. But ... Wash isn't coming back, so that's sad in and of itself too.

Wash not coming back resonates strongely for me because of how great and tragic a loss this is for Zoe.

I don't even know that *I* was so pained by his death, so much as it killed me to think of Zoe's reaction and pain. It broke me truly, but it was thinking of how his death would affect others that twisted me so.

Not sure if I should white font this or not, but at the premier Q and A Joss said, with regard to any possible sequel that AT and RG would be back.

I don't feel like Wash's death was a slap in the face, since there is plenty of meta evidence that they couldn't get Alan back for more than one movie.

I guess I wasn't clear--I don't feel, at all, that Wash's death was intended to be a slap in the face. But all the same, that's how it felt to me, and I can't change that. While I was driving home afterwards with my friends (all major fans), one said, "This should feel like a triumphant moment, but all I can feel is grief." It was cruel in the way that, well, life is cruel; it was a reminder that, though we have Serenity, and that's wonderful, we'll never have Firefly again--whatever the reason.

Now, Book's death is a death that only hits the fans. So to speak. No reason a newbie would give a fuck about him. And he didn't need to die for the plot either.

I figured Book's death was meant to be the putative catalyst behind Mal's change of heart, such as it was.

I figured Book's death was meant to be the putative catalyst behind Mal's change of heart, such as it was.

Yeah, but I think that effect could have been achieved with him still alive.

Now, I don't mind his death so much (sad about the untold story, Joss please fix that), but I don't see how Wash's is worse. What Wash's death achieved for me could only have been achieved with a crew death, period. Mal's change of heart could have been achieved with the death and destruction of anything that had been shown to be close to him, but it didn't have to be a show regular.

Mal's change of heart could have been achieved with the death and destruction of anything that had been shown to be close to him, but it didn't have to be a show regular.

Totally. Book didn't *have* to die to spark Mal's change; I just figure that, since Book *did* die, that was the plot-related reason for it.

I figured Book's death was meant to be the putative catalyst behind Mal's change of heart, such as it was.

Yes, this. I felt if moved the plot along whereas Wash's death didn't really. Except for the emotional impact on Zoe and then the crew. It felt like a gut punch but I don't think it was intended as an insult to Firefly fans.

I am VERY unhappy that Wash is dead, but I agree that we would be less likely to get him back. . . and then Book's death -- I also REALLY wanted to know his backstory -- it's just frustrating.

Now, I am sure that there is a way in which Book's backstory can be told -- well, maybe I just hope that it could be relevant to another future Firefly movie because I really want to know it.

Kate P. once again speaks for me on this. Part of what made Firefly so great, to me, was the entire ensemble. Whereas Buffy and Angel were named after their leads, and it was very much their show, Firefly and Serenity are named after the ship, and by extension, the crew.

As much as I love Willow and Giles and the Scoobies as a whole, had any of them died I would have never thought "It's just not Buffy anymore." Same with the MoG and Angel. But without Wash and Book, any future Firefly/Serenity projects seem like they will be incomplete.

Joss did say in an interview, when asked about the deaths, that in his first draft everyone survived, but he felt that lessened the impact of the final battle. That it just made it "30 minutes of noise". Which I can understand from the PoV of a non-fan. They're not going to have the attachment to these characters that we do, so the tension is going to be lower. Wash's death, in particular, wakes the larger audience up and makes them think "Wow, all of these people could die."

The problem for me, and I'm sure many others, is that we didn't need the tension ratcheted up. We were already invested. As I said before, I shut down emotionally during the final battle because I could not allow myself to care anymore. I went from "Oh my God, this is tense!" to "Why is Joss doing this?" It was just too much and I was thrown out of the story because of it.

I was another one those people who left the theatre feeling burned out instead of elated.