Yeah, but the kinderwhore thang (which started with Kat Bjelland of Babes in Toyland, I think) wasn't really very Riot Grrrll at all. Kathleen Hanna didn't dress like that.

So, you're telling me that the only sources of this "girl-liberation" movement that I've ever heard of are both by men, and one of them involves said liberated girl enjoying her own rape??

That sort of speaks ill for the movement, you think? Anyway if I were in the movement, I wouldn't want to be associated with Snow Crash.

I know a lot of people listened to Ani DiFranco when I was in college, but just as many didn't and hated her. I, of course, had never heard of her. (And didn't like her. Woman needs to write songs that fit into her own singing register.)

I guess I'm a little unclear on what does or does not make zeitgeist. I would have said that something transmitted in paper zine culture, by definition, is not zeitgeist, because zines are not the easiest things in the world to obtain, and tend[ed] to be local-distribution only. I guess maybe I have a larger minimum popularity threshold to qualify for zeitgeistiness?

I need to watch Teen Titans. Raven's a waif? That's new.

I just ran across this article two seconds ago: Courtney Love is doing a comic through TOKYOPOP called Princess Ai based on her life. It's described in this month's Wizard as "an outspoken young girl who disguises herself as a nightclub performer - based on Love."

I am not a manga fan and I can't even make myself care a little bit about anything she does. But I thought it was pertinent to the above discussion.

I love how shooting at Kal produced feathers everywhere. Is that a Kryptonian thing? They didn't hit that many pillows.

Down comforter on bed.

I don't get why it is that w/o Clark, suddenly the Kents lose their farm. But I really just shouldn't worry about that.

Without Lex, the Kents don't have protection from Lex's Dad or their creditors.

Heh. Sumi, I was right there with ya on the "but, but, there's gotta be better ways to commit supercrimes than breaking open ATMs and paying for a car with a bag full of cash? Geeez, Clark. Dumb."

This piece of red kryptonite apparently changes Clark in to a motorcycle-riding, bad-boy asshole, and it doesn't do much for his IQ. He's not Clark trying to be bad, his personality is altered and distorted.

And I, too wonder about the fingerprints. Someday they'll have Superman's fingerprints. Won't that be interesting.

So, you're telling me that the only sources of this "girl-liberation" movement that I've ever heard of are both by men, and one of them involves said liberated girl enjoying her own rape??

I'm saying that you've only encountered the distant shadows of the original Platonic source, as purveyed by some men.

That sort of speaks ill for the movement, you think?

No, the actual movement declined to propagate itself in the major media, contracting and going further underground. Unless you actually own copies of the zine Girl Germs you've probably never seen the actual movement.

Down comforter on bed.

Really? Just looked like satin sheets to me.

No, the actual movement declined to propagate itself in the major media, contracting and going further underground. Unless you actually own copies of the zine Girl Germs you've probably never seen the actual movement.

Yep. Conscious rejection of the media, actually.

Lot of cool ideals, when I think about it. Just... lot of other stuff got in the way, as always.

Sorry ita, Just fanwanking there. I had planned to put a smiley next to it.

I actually do not recall if it was or not.

Unless you actually own copies of the zine Girl Germs you've probably never seen the actual movement.

So, yeah. I'm back to the part where, how can something be of the zeitgeist if it's not available widely? Or do you mean zeitgeist only for particular cities, or regions? (This works a lot better in France, where everyone looks to Paris as their cultural cluster.)

My general thinking is that an item cannot practically qualify for "zeitgeist" unless it is already inextricably bound into the system of cultural production. Not that there is an inherent economic aspect of every item of the zeitgeist (although, god knows, a lot of it comes from advertising), but I don't see how it can be the "spirit of the times" until such time as a vast number of people, nationwide, are thinking about it. That involves production and distribution and marketing and sales, on the national level, of whatever medium is transmitting this new idea.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Big Machines of culture being the conduit of ideas and attitudes and the cultural products where I make my psychological home. It sounds like these riot grrl people were politically opposed to major distribution of their stuff (for "stuff" see agenda, songs, style, whatever), so they disqualified themselves, consciously, from being what I would call zeitgeist.