I used to battle for the "but Spike has a soul now" team, but honestly, the soul was never an issue for him the way it was for Angel, and I therefore don't see the soul as having done much for him. I mean, the only time he was actually killing people in the past, what 3 seasons, is after he got the soul. Granted that wasn't technically his fault, but it just proved to me that soul does not = eternally good.

I mean, like Anya said, people kill each other, which is clearly insane, and hey, we are all supposed to be soul-having by nature. So the soul argument just doesn't do it for me anymore. The lines between soul = good no soul = bad have become very blurred, and that seems much more realistic to me.

yer welcome, justkim.

re: the spike thing, I have this memory of JM saying that they filmed it both ways -- him getting his soul and him getting his chip removed. Is this a false memory implanted by the monks or did anyone else read this interview?

That would make sense, and then maybe they did some poking around to see what would create more of an effect. I don't remember the interview smoster, but it sounds resonable.

Also, I'm posting again so soon because, when Spike was reinsouled, it seemed like he lost a lot of oomph. Angel with a soul still had some character, while to me, Spike with a soul is just Buffy's Little Love Slave.

I don't think that Spike shouldn't have had the redemption option, I just think that they've told rather than shown, based on an assumption that's sketchy to begin with, if that makes sense.

I think this is the point that Plei has been trying to make forever, that is maybe not getting across as well as it should.

The problem is not whether Spike should be allowed redemption; it's not whether there's a difference between Souled!Spike and Unsouled!Spike; it's not whether Spike should be allowed to win back Buffy's heart AR or no AR.

The problem is that they haven't done any of those things.

The problem is that they've just had Spike come on the screen and say "I have a soul now, I am redeemed," and had Buffy go "okay."

This is telling. Not Showing.

This is what Plei (and I) have a beef with, both in this season, and in the development of the B/S storyline.

But it's true in the Buffyverse as well that a soul doesn't always make you good or do good. We've seen it with countless people.

But we've never seen a vampire who had a soul and was evil. Look at how Darla was changed by Connor's soul -- kind of reverse Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

Yes, doing good deeds is a conscious choice. But there's a difference between "having a soul doesn't make you do good things" and "having a soul doesn't make you basically good." We can say the former but not the latter.

I do think the writers have done a bad job showing how the soul has changed Spike, and being consistent about it. But I don't think it's meaningless.

They showed quite a bit -- up until he actually got his soul. I mean, in Season 5 Buffy was already trusting him to care for her family, he withstood torture from Glory, the Scoobies trusted him to sit with Dawn when Buffy was dead -- then, when she was back, their relationships with him reverted back to quasi-Season 4 status, or seemed to because he was rarely shown interacting with anyone that wasn't Buffy.

As for White! Willow, I am so totally into it. Oh yeah.

Yeah. I said something like this last night, but it bears repeating.

I'm a big ol' sappy Willow-luvr, and Willow the White gives me a big happy that makes up for a lot of other bad this season.

Did anyone check out the official Buffy auction? I didn't get excited about anything they offered - plus people are bidding crazy, insane amounts!

checked it out briefly, rayne. i made a remark somewhere that my opinion and a thou still won't buy you one of smg's outfits from buffy.

is the money to try and keep upn afloat, or what? i hope it's going to a charity.

I'm standing in Plei and Sean's corner on the Spuffy issues, I agree there was not nearly enough showing. Which could have easily been remedied if they would have axed the countless useless storylines that popped in this season. But...ah, water, bridge.

I checked the auction as soon as i saw the promo for it. I was highly disappointed. I wanted some stuff from way past seasons. Like...I don't know, Faith's knife or something.