God only knows how. I mean, they had all of S5 to watch people's reactions to him, and to the idea of his Love For Buffy; they didn't notice people were investing and rooting for the couple?

I suspect they didn't quite grasp the degree.

I think part of the problem was that it was Spike that she was sleeping with, and we've come to know Spike, and even feel sorry for him. It probably would have worked better, as far as making the populace at large understand what they were getting at, to introduce a new character to play that role in Buffy's life, or use someone who had been established as bad news (Warren might have been a good choice on that count)

That's a REALLY interesting idea.

I think what you're saying with the "feel sorry for" Spike comment is really a major problem that season has. Before "Wrecked" the ME writers had spent almost a year making Spike EXTREMELY sympathetic. He's the unrequited lover, he's the selfless guy who protects Dawn even after Buffy's death, he's the only person Buffy can relate to after she's left heaven, and he's the guy who essentially saves her life in OMWF.

What I hated about "Wrecked" was that suddenly, Buffy had complete and total disdain for Spike and for herself for being with him. I think before "Wrecked" it was more complex than that. She clearly enjoyed his company and the show had established that while he didn't have a soul, he wasn't entirely evil anymore. I could buy some self-loathing, or confusion from Buffy about her relationship with Spike, but I didn't buy this intense immediate hatred. It would have worked better for me if their relationship had started out misguided (Buffy sleeping with Spike just to feel something with another luke-warm body) and then slowly gotten more messed up.

It seemed like in "Wrecked" (and afterwards) we were instantly being bludgeoned with two anvils - Willow has a bad, bad addiction to magic, and Buffy has a bad, bad addiction to sex. (I could go on a whole rant about how misogynist I think those two themes are in S6, but it's probably better if I don't.)

Before "Wrecked" the ME writers had spent almost a year making Spike EXTREMELY sympathetic.

I found S5 Spike creepy and stalkery, FWIW, not sympathetic.

I don't know if this was ever discussed, but am I the only one who saw serious parallels between the beginning of Xander & Cordelia's relationship & the beginning of Buffy & Spike's?

• The long period of emnity before the romance
• The music swelling over the first kiss
• The fighting-to-kissing-to-fighting arcs of the first few encounters
• The attraction coupled with lack of respect, or even liking, for each other
• The big secrecy - mostly HER idea - because she's afraid her friends would be disgusted by it

Or is this just me?

FWIW, I liked watching B/S. I didn't think it was a romantic relationship. I didn't think Buffy was a bitch for treating Spike like a pariah; I don't think Spike was a bastard taking advantage of Buffy's depression. I thought they were both awful for treating themselves like that. It rang true to me. DMP was my first episode, and the dead-eyed dumpster sex was what made me want to watch more - I'd never seen that type of self-destructive sexual behavior portrayed on prime-time TV & it just FLOORED me.

We've decided that S6 is where the show suffered a serious break in universality of the storylines, in addition to the other issues. Unlike the other issues, there's not a good way to address this particular problem. My solution of "have the whole audience spun into an alternate reality where they've dated my ex-honeys" doesn't appear to be practical, you see.

This is something I was thinking about just the other day myself, coming from the opposite side as someone who honestly didn't understand where the writers were trying to go with S/B, partly because certain developments in Spike's character from late S5 and early S6 had me expecting a redemptive love storyline, and partly because of what my own life experience did and didn't bring to the table. It got me wondering what stories really are universal, if any, and how one as an artist goes about making one's particular experience universal enough to resonate with a wide audience.

For example, how would someone who'd had an atypical adolescence from our culture's perspective experience S1-S3? (e.g. someone who'd been homeschooled in an isolated community, someone from a culture so different they didn't have anything like American high school and/or teen culture, etc.) My gut feeling is that they'd miss a lot of the metaphor, but that the overall quality of the storytelling is so good that they'd understand what was going on and enjoy it.

What S6 has done for me as a writer is that, whenever I realize that some character or plot point is me exorcising a personal demon, I have to be really careful to run it by my writers group or a few beta readers to make sure they're having the reaction I want, or something close enough to it, before I submit it to a wider world.

I think what you're saying with the "feel sorry for" Spike comment is really a major problem that season has. Before "Wrecked" the ME writers had spent almost a year making Spike EXTREMELY sympathetic. He's the unrequited lover, he's the selfless guy who protects Dawn even after Buffy's death, he's the only person Buffy can relate to after she's left heaven, and he's the guy who essentially saves her life in OMWF.

See for me, this is what made it work as to the characterization of Buffy. I could buy that she found him hot, not only because of Marster's appearance, and Buffy's fondness for the undead, but because there were some real moments.

I found S5 Spike creepy and stalkery, FWIW, not sympathetic.

And this, for me, also played into making it work. It made it clear there was a big-assed glass ceiling over Chipped!Spike's head, and he wasn't ever butting through it without a soul. It was the perfect set-up for him to seek a soul. The soul was a perfect set-up for him not ending up a big pile of dust (given the rape attempt).

And the rape attempt was the perfect set-up for, in the end, it never really working out for them.

I didn't think Buffy was a bitch for treating Spike like a pariah; I don't think Spike was a bastard taking advantage of Buffy's depression. I thought they were both awful for treating themselves like that. It rang true to me.

The first THREE times I read this, I read it as if you were saying you did think Buffy was a bitch, but Spike wasn't a bastard. I was all ready to shut off my PC, so I didn't go 'splody. Reading what you actually wrote is, of course, much better, because it comes very close to how I feel.

DMP was my first episode, and the dead-eyed dumpster sex was what made me want to watch more - I'd never seen that type of self-destructive sexual behavior portrayed on prime-time TV & it just FLOORED me.

That's what I thought when I watched it, and then I read the script and got all disappointed. That was supposed to be a sexy look. *sigh* Still, Dead Things was nothing if not self-destructive sexual behavior, as far as Buffy was concerned, so it's not like the writers missed that totally.

My gut feeling is that they'd miss a lot of the metaphor, but that the overall quality of the storytelling is so good that they'd understand what was going on and enjoy it.

I would call myself a statistical outlier in the cultural regard, but even though I hadn't been through much at all of what they were trying to paint with metaphor, or even been witness, I feel I got it.

I don't know if you'd be an outlier in the sense I mean, ita--I wasn't thinking so much about the specific details of American adolescence as portrayed on the show as much as the broader concept that "adolescence" itself, the idea of an intermediate stage between childhood and full maturity, with its own culture and problems, is not a human universal.

At least, I'm pretty sure I read that in some anthropology text or another at some point, and it made enough sense to me that I nodded sagely and said "Hmm" in a reflective way.

How do you skip human adolescence though? Without being raised by wolves.

I didn't know high school was hell until I started watching TV/movies about it. And I was in university by that point.

That's what I thought when I watched it, and then I read the script and got all disappointed. That was supposed to be a sexy look.

It was? Huh.