This is also my issue with Spike in Season 6, but hoo boy, I don't think I want to open up that can of worms

You're actually pretty safe here.

I suspect our ability to actually, y'know, discuss the issues we had with the character, etc., may be part of why we appear to have a rep as Spike haters. (Collectively. We've been accused of it.)

Jilli and I have discussed this at great length, offline. We both "got" the story they appear to have been attempting to tell with Spike, and spend a fair amount of idle chatter time (our drive home, in other words) trying to pin down the various reasons why other people not only didn't see the same story we did, but saw a *completely* different story about a grand romance that by rights should have lead to hearts and flowers, or a tale of redemptive love, or a vampire in an abusive relationship with a bitch what used him, or whatever.

We've decided that S6 is where the show suffered a serious break in universality of the storylines, in addition to the other issues. Unlike the other issues, there's not a good way to address this particular problem. My solution of "have the whole audience spun into an alternate reality where they've dated my ex-honeys" doesn't appear to be practical, you see.

My solution of "have the whole audience spun into an alternate reality where they've dated my ex-honeys" doesn't appear to be practical, you see.

I'd like to be exempt, because I had my own soul-sucking demon. But as to the viability of your idea, you never know until you've tried.

I think part of the problem was that it was Spike that she was sleeping with, and we've come to know Spike, and even feel sorry for him. It probably would have worked better, as far as making the populace at large understand what they were getting at, to introduce a new character to play that role in Buffy's life, or use someone who had been established as bad news (Warren might have been a good choice on that count)

I think part of the problem was that it was Spike that she was sleeping with, and we've come to know Spike, and even feel sorry for him. It probably would have worked better, as far as making the populace at large understand what they were getting at, to introduce a new character to play that role in Buffy's life

Eh, I don't think it would have served quite the same purpose. I do think they underestimated the degree of sympathy for Spike in the audience-at-large, but he's really the only one who would have worked in the storyline. I have to leave for work soon, which is annoying, because I feel like I'm close to being able to clearly explain exactly what I mean by this.

I do think they underestimated the degree of sympathy for Spike in the audience-at-large

...God only knows how. I mean, they had all of S5 to watch people's reactions to him, and to the idea of his Love For Buffy; they didn't notice people were investing and rooting for the couple?

I wish James Masters had never been made a regular cast member.

Did it work?

Dang. I would love to see how the show would have evovled without Spike as a main character.

God only knows how. I mean, they had all of S5 to watch people's reactions to him, and to the idea of his Love For Buffy; they didn't notice people were investing and rooting for the couple?

I suspect they didn't quite grasp the degree.

I think part of the problem was that it was Spike that she was sleeping with, and we've come to know Spike, and even feel sorry for him. It probably would have worked better, as far as making the populace at large understand what they were getting at, to introduce a new character to play that role in Buffy's life, or use someone who had been established as bad news (Warren might have been a good choice on that count)

That's a REALLY interesting idea.

I think what you're saying with the "feel sorry for" Spike comment is really a major problem that season has. Before "Wrecked" the ME writers had spent almost a year making Spike EXTREMELY sympathetic. He's the unrequited lover, he's the selfless guy who protects Dawn even after Buffy's death, he's the only person Buffy can relate to after she's left heaven, and he's the guy who essentially saves her life in OMWF.

What I hated about "Wrecked" was that suddenly, Buffy had complete and total disdain for Spike and for herself for being with him. I think before "Wrecked" it was more complex than that. She clearly enjoyed his company and the show had established that while he didn't have a soul, he wasn't entirely evil anymore. I could buy some self-loathing, or confusion from Buffy about her relationship with Spike, but I didn't buy this intense immediate hatred. It would have worked better for me if their relationship had started out misguided (Buffy sleeping with Spike just to feel something with another luke-warm body) and then slowly gotten more messed up.

It seemed like in "Wrecked" (and afterwards) we were instantly being bludgeoned with two anvils - Willow has a bad, bad addiction to magic, and Buffy has a bad, bad addiction to sex. (I could go on a whole rant about how misogynist I think those two themes are in S6, but it's probably better if I don't.)

Before "Wrecked" the ME writers had spent almost a year making Spike EXTREMELY sympathetic.

I found S5 Spike creepy and stalkery, FWIW, not sympathetic.

I don't know if this was ever discussed, but am I the only one who saw serious parallels between the beginning of Xander & Cordelia's relationship & the beginning of Buffy & Spike's?

• The long period of emnity before the romance
• The music swelling over the first kiss
• The fighting-to-kissing-to-fighting arcs of the first few encounters
• The attraction coupled with lack of respect, or even liking, for each other
• The big secrecy - mostly HER idea - because she's afraid her friends would be disgusted by it

Or is this just me?

FWIW, I liked watching B/S. I didn't think it was a romantic relationship. I didn't think Buffy was a bitch for treating Spike like a pariah; I don't think Spike was a bastard taking advantage of Buffy's depression. I thought they were both awful for treating themselves like that. It rang true to me. DMP was my first episode, and the dead-eyed dumpster sex was what made me want to watch more - I'd never seen that type of self-destructive sexual behavior portrayed on prime-time TV & it just FLOORED me.