Was watching "Gargoyles" on Toon Disney tonight, and I was watching Goliath and the human woman making googly eyes at each other and I thought "My god, it's Buffy and Angel!" Then I saw the copyright date of 1995 and went, "Or are Buffy and Angel really Goliath and Alisa (or whatever her name is)?" He protects her when he can, they fight evil, when she gets turned into a gargoyle a whole new world of "what if?" opens up--I wonder if Joss watched "Gargoyle"?

In spite of the show's enormous clue hammer, I always thought Buffy loved Riley. *Parker* was the rebound guy. She seemed happy in season 4, she genuinely cared about him.

And I can sorta see what you're saying, ted, but Riley lost a lot of points with me for blaming her for everything after he got caught. It was always his bugaboo that she wanted darkness, I didn't see that. If there was any darkness trend, I'd've thought it was more like faith's, wanting to be dark, rather than sleep with it.

Connie, it's "Elisa". And she's totally Buffy. Just up the brooding and I can get to Goliath=Angel. Didn't stick around for his kid, (+2 geek points for knowing:) Angela, to see how Connor she is. From what I've since seen, the show starting being worse around then. Definately right there with you, though.

Helen, Maybe it was watching everything all out oforder the first time (gotta get on season 5, now that I've exhausted Firefly), but I felt like we were getting mixed messages on Riley. That we're confused cuz the writers were. Kinda like Spike was (from what I've read/heard from the various writers) in S6. Not a clear, consistent message.

Me, personally? I was kinda off-put from the beginning by Rilkey-and-Buffy because he had way more chemistry with Willow t insert character identification issues here. He is a lesbian, after all.

but I felt like we were getting mixed messages on Riley. That we're confused cuz the writers were.

Debet, nothing to do with seeing the eps out of order -- I've been riding the same hobby horse (under the "many personalities of Riley" banner) for a long time.

I was kinda off-put from the beginning by Rilkey-and-Buffy because he had way more chemistry with Willow

Well, yeah. The beginning of Buffy/Riley was the worst written getting-of-two-characters-together in the show's history -- she went from being "Willow's friend" to the girl he was supposedly in love with in about a second and a half, for no other reason than the writers needed to have them be a couple by the middle of the season. (When I started watching the show mid-S4, they were already together, and they seemed fine. But seeing the season from the beginning, it's as if they're missing an episode.)

under the "many personalities of Riley" banner

Wrod. They either should have left him as goofy T.A. guy, or had Buffy dating Forrest instead, but still have Riley be the first one in the Initiative who finds out she's the slayer (this makes sense in my head, I swear).

I actually didn't mind that they wanted to make Riley a bit darker, but the reasons for it (you don't rely on me enough) were lamer than a lame duck in lametown. I think Buffy not loving him could have been more than sufficient reason to send him over to the dark side, but they'd have needed to show a little more build up.

Although, in Riley's defense, I never quite got that he blamed her for the suckjobs - that's something I think Buffy latched on to. However, any slack I'd cut him in that direction he loses because he also gave her an ultimatum - that's just bullshit. Unfortunately, it felt more like the writers giving her an ultimatum than Riley.

There's an article in the Chicago Sun-Times about Sandy Grushow leaving as Fox Television Entertainment Group chairman. It mentions "Buffy."

Grushow made a splash in 2001, selling the 20th-produced WB hit "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to UPN, which came in with more money. Both Grushow and UPN claimed it had nothing to do with the fact that Fox-owned UPN affiliates were weighing whether to renew their agreements with the network. The deal's legacy is that it discouraged networks from buying shows from outside studios.

I know this has been done to death, but ever time I see OMWF and Xander and Anya pester Giles for some way to stop this thing it annoys me. Xander doesn't even look embarrassed.

Xander doesn't even look embarrassed.

Duh, because he didn't do it. I'm sorry, that just makes no sense at all.

Still think he was being gallent and covering for Dawn.