Question: Will hiding in a cavern with stockpiled chocolate goods be any part of this plan?

Xander ,'Get It Done'


Buffy 4: Grr. Arrgh.  

This is where we talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer! No spoilers though?if you post one by accident, an admin will delete it. This thread is NO LONGER NAFDA. Please don't discuss current Angel events here.


victor infante - May 18, 2003 12:25:44 am PDT #549 of 10001
To understand what happened at the diner, we shall use Mr. Papaya! This is upsetting because he's the friendliest of fruits.

Jane wrote the Dawn segment.

Ah. Knew I was forgetting something.


Jon B. - May 18, 2003 12:47:54 am PDT #550 of 10001
A turkey in every toilet -- only in America!

At the end of the Succubus Club show, Drew Greenberg talked about the Dead Lesbian Cliché. The usual stuff -- how he felt that they were subverting the cliché rather than promoting it. But he also expressed frustration that none of the Gay press that wrote articles lambasting the show ever contacted him (the only openly gay writer on the show) to get his viewpoint. I can see how that would rankle.


SailAweigh - May 18, 2003 1:53:24 am PDT #551 of 10001
Nana korobi, ya oki. (Fall down seven times, stand up eight.) ~Yuzuru Hanyu/Japanese proverb

Okay, not to reopen what appears to be a closed argument, but I'd kind of like to give my take on the "show" vs. "tell" aspect of this season. I am not a screenwriter, nor am I an author of any type of fiction. I do not have any basis to develop a critical breakdown of the writing this season from an informed viewpoint of what makes good or bad television. My background is probably in direct opposition to most people here. But I still have my own opinion on this season's storyline and how well it worked for me, and that is based on a (semi)professional analysis of another sort. My background is in anthropology and classical studies. When I look back at this season, I see a classical epic poem. Epics weren't shown, they were told. Epic poetry developed from storytelling. We know this because of the way the earliest epics (e.g. Homer's Illiad) uses repetious language as a memory device. We still find it in poetry and music. Poe's "The Raven" wouldn't be nearly as interesting or emotional if it didn't have the repeatedly stressed refrain of "quoth the Raven, Nevermore." The constant repetition builds resonance over the course of the poem such that whether you remember the words or not, you're left with a feeling which you can't simply shrug off. The feelings and the word picture remain in your memory long after you finish reading the poem.

t sappiness alert

This, for me, is where this season has worked. The episode "Storyteller" spelled it out explicitly. Besides being the story of Andrew's first steps toward redemption, it spells out the entire premise of this season, and of the full story of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Her story is epic. It is a story that even if all technology were to fail and we had no TV, no DVDs, no electronic reproduction, we would still tell the story of Buffy because her story is timeless, epic, human and universal. So for me, the fact they chose to tell more than show more this season is okay with me. They saved the best for last. Buffy has gone through all the classic stages of the hero's journey (as outlined by Joseph Campbell in "The Hero with a Thousand Faces") up to her reintegration into society with her knowledge of the infinite and its embedded foundation in mundane reality. Her journey is not complete until she shares this knowledge, but she must face the resentment and lack of understanding on the part of those around her who have not had the same life-altering experiences. Ultimately, by giving up the self, the knowledge of transcendence is passed on to others, on the field of battle, and this will finally allow her to pass seemlessly between worlds secure in the knowledge that the individualistic self matters not in the timeless all/nothing. What is the end, is the beginning and the beginning is the end. I am so looking forward to the last episode to see (and hear) the way all this will come to fruition. My allergies have been acting up for over a week now, just thinking what epic poetry Joss is going to give us to hold to ourselves to salve our souls. We can learn the truth of trancendence from Buffy, if we are willing to listen to what she has to say. Not just with our ears, but with our hearts.


Cindy - May 18, 2003 5:49:05 am PDT #552 of 10001
Nobody

OK - Now I'm hearing MY ANGELUS to the tune of MY SHIRONA.

Oh. You will pay. And pay. And pay for earworming me with that. Like it wasn't bad enough to be a child of the 70s in the first place. *shaky fist*


Anne W. - May 18, 2003 5:55:24 am PDT #553 of 10001
The lost sheep grow teeth, forsake their lambs, and lie with the lions.

Plei, I think you hit the nail on the head with:

...Is so wrapped up in trying to seem okay when she's not that she misses all sorts of little signals when other people are not okay.


Frankenbuddha - May 18, 2003 6:13:39 am PDT #554 of 10001
"We are the Goon Squad and we're coming to town...Beep! Beep!" - David Bowie, "Fashion"

Sorry, Cindy, but I needed to share the pain. As if having that MY CHALUPA Taco Hell ad around wasn't bad enough.


ted r - May 18, 2003 8:26:20 am PDT #555 of 10001
"You got twelve, and they got twelve. The old ladies are just as good as you are." -Dr. Einstein

Writing is rewriting, but I don't have time for more than a first draft, so apologies if this is more than usually lame or incoherent, but I'll at least keep it short.

My Essay on Spike

As I've said, I think one of the glories of BTVS has been the transformation of Spike over the last few seasons. I'm not going to argue the skill-or lack thereof-with which this was handled-you enjoyed it or you didn't. Instead I'm going to give my view of the nature of the transformation.

In season 5 we find Spike falling in love with Buffy. At first this is presented as just desire, but by the end of the season is something more-and it extends beyond Buffy to the "Summer's women." (Spike's grief for Joyce is real, as is his affection for Dawn.) In season 6 Spike is suffering from tremendous guilt over having failed to keep his promise and in the process save Buffy. This is important: Spike has no soul but he is already capable of guilt. It isn't a general guilt for his crimes, only for his failure to save Buffy (when it counted). But it is something Angelus, even with a chip, could never have felt. It is the "stink of humanity" the Judge felt in Spike even in season 2.

And then when Buffy returns she instinctively turns to Spike-he is both the only one of the Scoobies (except Dawn) not involved in pulling her out of heaven, but the only one who can understand returning from the dead (though not from Heaven, which is Buffy's knowledge alone). And it is because of this Spike has to be the one to save her from suicide by dance in OMWF.

And now things change. Buffy needs Spike-his desire for her connects her to Life in a way nothing else can. But he is still a vampire, who might never harm Buffy or Dawn but would certainly feed on others if the chip were removed. The demon in Spike is oddly incomplete, but it is still there. Spike, whatever he is, is not Angel. And so Buffy is disgusted by her own need for him. She first sleeps with him in the middle of a fight-and she is the one who turns it from violence to sex. And she continues to treat him with contempt. As she later admits, she uses him-and in doing so she feeds the demon side of his nature. Perhaps nothing she could have done would have encouraged him along the path to true redemption, but her behavior instead encourages him to try and pull her over into the dark. (But I agree with those who say that doesn't mean he would ever want to Sire her-he is in love with The Slayor, not a demon version of The Slayer.)

Until finally she realizes what the relationship is doing to both of them and ends it. Spike tries to accept this-at Xander's wedding he is clearly making an effort. But he can't. And then the comes AR.

Which is not at all planned out. Spike doesn't go there to rape Buffy, and doesn't think he is. That isn't to deny that it IS an attempted rape, but in Spike's drunken, desperate state it is simply another one of their twisted sexual encounters-sex through violence. When Buffy stops him, only THEN does he realize the difference, realize the line he has crossed. And again showing that his demon self is different from other vampires, he is horrified by the realization, and flees.

And now for the second time he feels guilt. But he is a creature without a soul-how can he feel guilt? It's the chip's fault. Spike's remark on leaving Sunnydale is a misdirect, but a fair one imo, because I think Spike IS telling himself when he leaves that he'll have the chip removed and be the monster he was meant to be. The writers are misdirecting us, but legitimtely because Spike is lying to himself as well as us.

Lying to himself because it isn't the chip that has allowed him to feel guilt-it is love, the capacity he showed the Judge long before the chip. There are those who say that his being in love with Buffy undermines his redemption arc-he's just doing it because he wants Buffy. But all good can be reduced to selfish motives (if I give my life to save someone at some level I have a "selfish" motive for doing so, unless the action is unitentional and instinctive). And the point is that Spike's feelings for Buffy are not just desire-thwarted desire alone doesn't provoke guilt, only rage and frustration. However limited by his demon nature, Spike feels love.

I'm not sure what his conscious self was telling him when he was in that cave. But I don't think it matters-whatever he was telling himself, the self he was telling it to didn't want the chip removed to kill Buffy, he wanted to be worthy of Buffy. So when in Beneath You he tells Buffy he went to get his soul to be the sort of man who could [never rape her] he is telling the underlying truth, whether he admitted it to himself at the time or not.

And that is the key-Spike's capacity for love and guilt drove him to get his soul. That doesn't erase the AR for either of them. But it puts it in a different context. Spike has done the unheard of-a vampire not cursed with a soul but obtaining one. Buffy-who knows full well the differece between a vamp with a soul and without-knows Spike's true redemption is not achieved but is now possible. And being Buffy, she can't stand on the sidelines of that struggle (which in the context of the battle with the First Evil has tremendous implications-corrupting Spike is a major goal of the FE all season; a redeemed Spike has to be the ultimate insult to the FE, while an evil Spike is a potentially powerful weapon in its employ). That is why Buffy fights so hard to keep Spike alive, why she refuses to stake him or allow Giles or Wood to do so.

Does watching-and indeed participating in- Spike's struggle spark other feelings? Probably; she isn't in love with him, but Buffy is intimately involved in Spike's path to redemption, and intimate feelings can be hard to keep in clear channels. Certainly Spike's feelings for Buffy threaten to spill over into sexual desire. And that is the FE's last hope-th


julie beth - May 18, 2003 8:35:53 am PDT #556 of 10001

awww...really nice ode to buffy in this morning's austin american-statesman. nice little collection of articles, really. no spoilers, don't worry:

main story

the buffy ABCs

the music of buffy


DCJensen - May 18, 2003 9:45:37 am PDT #557 of 10001
All is well that ends in pizza.

Ted, the end of your essay got cut off.


Laura - May 18, 2003 10:35:23 am PDT #558 of 10001
Our wings are not tired.

So when the gang got the Bringer to talk, all the Bringers (and by extension, the First) knew what the plan was going to be and they could set up a trap at the arsenal.

That really puts a different spin on the bomb.

OK - Now I'm hearing MY ANGELUS to the tune of MY SHIRONA.

Joining Cindy with the shaky fist.

But I agree with those who say that doesn't mean he would ever want to Sire her-he is in love with The Slayor, not a demon version of The Slayer.

I think he may have learned his lesson with Mom there.

Ted watches the same show I do. I hope he gets back to put up the last bit! Also {{Ted}} know that vibes along with prayers and good thoughts for you, Joanne and your loved ones are headed your way. I was going to send you a note, but no profile addy.

Right or wrong I glaze my eyes over the complaints. I am loving every moment of the end of this show. It is working for me. I'm grateful. Go team ME for providing me my favorite television entertainment for so many years.