Buffy and Xander:

I agree with Heather, and also? We have to factor in the Buffy/Xander friendship, because Buffy did.

Xander wasn't just some guy who wanted to go out with her. Xander was one of her two best (and only close) friends (and Buffy very well knew her other best friend had feelings for him). Buffy knew she didn't have romantic feelings for him at the time, and although if random!boy had asked her to the dance, she might have given it a shot, things not working out with random!boy would not have had the potential to hurt her two best friends, and Buffy herself, that things not working out with Xander would have. She did the honorable thing.

In my opinion, the attempted rape and the beating in the alley are equally bad and equally requiring of forgiveness.

Buffy was disgusting during the beating in the alley. Buffy had also been told, while having sex in the Bronze, while it was open, that she belonged in the dark with Spike, by Spike. For all I know, the memory of administering that beating may be why Buffy seemed to give Spike a pass for the attempted rape. It would have been nice if the writers showed me that, though. And if they did, I would still want to see that the hero of a girl-takes-back-the-night show, saw that although she did something horridly abusive and disgusting, and that she was very wrong in the doing, she still didn't deserved to have Spike try to rape her. Too bad we never got that story. If they were going to start it, they should have finished it.

Let's remember though, in addition to the fact that Buffy is going to best Spike in any tit for tat game we play, Spike had been, for quite some time, trying to convince Buffy that she was just as bad as he, that she came back wrong, and that she didn't belong in her world, with her friends any longer. He latched onto that the way a starving baby latches on to a nipple.

Spike showed up in the police station alley determined to stop Buffy, in any way possible, from going to the police about Katrina's death. I haven't rewatched Dead Things lately, but if I recall correctly, after telling her he wasn't going to *let* her do what she wanted to do, and his words weren't stopping her, he grabbed her arm and pulled her back into that alley. She punched him away or something, and he vamped out and blocked her way out of the alley, grabbed her, and threw her down. The beating didn't start until after that, and once it did start, he TOLD her to put it all on him.

Buffy didn't burst into his crypt and beat him - out of the blue. He went looking to keep her - by force - from doing something. Granted, to his (souless) way of thinking, he was protecting her. And, as it worked out, it's good that she didn't turn herself in for Katrina's death. But he didn't know that when he went to stop her. He just couldn't *let* her do it, regardless of who killed Katrina.

In Seeing Red, Spike burst into Buffy's bathroom to show her how she was supposed to feel. She didn't tell him to come over. She didn't tell him to interrupt her bath. When he knocked (an already injured) her against the tub and to the floor - she didn't tell him to put it all on her. She told him, "No" and, "Stop," and "You're hurting me". And she cried. And she struggled to get free. And he kept trying to insert a part of his body into a part of her body, despite her refusal, and despite her tears, words and struggling, because in his eyes, he "knew" what was better for Buffy than Buffy did.

There's no equating the events. What she did in Dead Things was ugly, but Spike submitted to it; he even invited it. If I were going to compare that alley beating to another event on the show, I'd compare it to when Buffy basically made a dying Angel feed off of her in Graduation Day, except the GD feeding was rather erotic, while the beating was stomach churning. In that instance, Buffy would be in the Spike role and Angel would be in the Buffy role. At any rate, administering that beating to Spike in Dead Things is one of the events that led Buffy to the conclusion that they shouldn't be together.

And when you add up everything that happened in the S/B relationship, I think she has more to be forgiven for. And not just because she's the heroine and is supposed to KNOW what good behaviour is.

Granted, they weren't equals. Buffy had a soul during season 6. Spike did not. Certainly, expecting a higher standard of behavior from her is not wacky. But comparing them, is like comparing an upset human to a rabid dog.

With the exception of the alley beating (which he began by not allowing Buffy to do what she wanted to do concerning herself), and with the exception of her going to him and asking him to tell her he loved her, after she first saw Riley in As You Were, it seems to me that Spike initiated most of their contact. I guess Gone is an exception to that as well. Also? Buffy never, for one moment, led Spike to believe this was any kind of love match for her.

But the attempted rape becomes this huge thing, and the alley beating is just forgotten.

The attempted rape was a violation of the trust they'd built up during their time together (particularly during their sexual trysts but not exclusive to those trysts) in a way the beating wasn't. I mean, let's pause for a moment and remember the first time they consummated their "relationship". Physical fights were standard for them. After all, it's how they met in the first place.

But why trot out the alley way beating at all? To what end, I mean? To tell us the season 6 relationship demeaned Buffy? Denigrated her? We already know that. We agree. I don't see the logic in using it as a support to the argument that they should be together.

I have no problem with Buffy forgiving Spike. I think she needed to for his sake and hers. I have a problem with how the writers told the Buffy-Spike story from Seeing Red through to Chosen. It interested me the entire time. Often, it was the main reason I tuned in. But it wasn't a Their-Love-Is-So pure story. It was a My-Word-They-Might-Be-Worse-For-Each-Other than Buffy-Angel-Were Story.

About the A/R in the B/R in S/R...

In other bits of the fandom, I started seeing the attempted rape, in the bathroom during Seeing Red abbreviated as the A/R in the B/R in S/R, probably the night Seeing Red aired. At first, it was the "it wasn't attempted rape - it was attempted sex" contingent I saw doing it. There was a contingent of us who refused to abbreviate it, because we felt like the people (in the other bits of the fandom) who did so, were doing so to take away the sting of the scene.

I *know* Buffistas - particularly Plei and Heather - aren't doing that. It does get repetitive to type it out. I don't care when people abbreviate it now, but I still type it out because the night Seeing Red aired, I read someone I had generally enjoyed reading over the years tell me that if Buffy had just let him do it, she would have enjoyed it, and I never want to forget what it was. I have no doubt Plei and Heather remember what it was, no matter if they call it the toenail clipping.

t /pontificating hat trick

with the exception of her going to him and asking him to tell her he loved her, after she first saw Riley in As You Were, it seems to me that Spike initiated most of their contact.

That's interesting, because I recall that, other than the attempted rape, Buffy initiated most of the contact. She was the one who went after him & initiated the kiss in OMWF; she went after him (and presumably initiated the make-out session) in Tabula Rasa, and she certainly drove the action in Smashed, making the choice as to when they went from hitting each other to necking & back again.

Also, my read on why people are bringing up the alley fight is not that this is an indication that the relationship should have continued, but rather that the problems with the relationship were not all about the rape - Buffy was just as bad as Spike was.

Stepping back (and again, projecting my own personal experience because what else can you do), I don't think that it's necessarily anyone's sole fault that the relationship was so unhealthy - it was the interaction. And the fact that it was fostering this toxic situation and taking Buffy away from her friends & herself is the reason it should have ended. Not because of any specific event - although many of the events would be enough to justify the end of a relationship in and of themselves.

Thinking back on it, I've now decided that I'm also bothered by the fact that Spike was shown growing so much as a person during the course of the relationship. I mean, he obsesses over the girl, stalks her, mind-fucks her, and finally rapes her, and it all leads up to him becoming a more noble being who can save the world. That's kind of creepy, and it's reminiscent of old novels in which men are transformed by the love of a good woman - even if they have to get that love by icky and immoral means. Bad message to propogate, if you ask me.

That's interesting, because I recall that, other than the attempted rape, Buffy initiated most of the contact. She was the one who went after him & initiated the kiss in OMWF; she went after him (and presumably initiated the make-out session) in Tabula Rasa, and she certainly drove the action in Smashed, making the choice as to when they went from hitting each other to necking & back again.

Actually, you're right here. I worded my point very poorly. Usually, he went to her. That's all I meant. But also usually, if there was intimate contact, Buffy initiated. It seems to me that seldom did she go to him.

He called her in "Smashed". When she didn't show, he hunted her down. He went to the Doublemeat while she was working. He confronted her on the lawn on her way home from work. I could be wrong, but it seems like more often, he went looking for her, than the other way around.

I don't think that it's necessarily anyone's sole fault that the relationship was so unhealthy - it was the interaction. And the fact that it was fostering this toxic situation and taking Buffy away from her friends & herself is the reason it should have ended. Not because of any specific event - although many of the events would be enough to justify the end of a relationship in and of themselves.

I agree with this, too. But because Spike did try to rape her, and because Buffy is the hero of a girl-takes-back-night series, I have a problem with her continuing to have an emotional desire for him to remain, and continuing to describe him as a hottie (as that term, to me, implies she retains some sexual desire for him), after he tried to rape her. The reason I have these issues, apart from Buffy being the hero of such a piece, is because it feels like the writers left out the middle, left out the story part of the story.

A) Spike tries to rape Buffy.

B) Stuff happens

C) Buffy has already comes to terms with the attempted rape and still wants him around and wants him.

Where "stuff happens", is where we could have had a story. Instead, we had endless repetition of "he has a soul now" and all that static of the potential slayers. Had this been a really tight season, pacing-wise, I'd be more over this. I'd accept that stuff must have happened off screen that led Buffy to this serene emotional place with regard to Spike. But it wasn't and I haven't.

But aren't you left with the same problem? If it's a metaphor for rape, how can Buffy forgive him? Or is it a metaphor for something else? Or is it just better to dress the rape up as something else?

I think it's the level of remove we're talking about. For example, there are plenty of guys who don't call/"go bad" after you sleep with them (see; Abrams, Parker). But IRL, they don't lose their souls. Angel did, and that's why it's easier to forgive Angel for what he did as Angelus.

Also, many women in the audience have their own memories of an attempted assault or actual assault. If you bring that to the table, it's much harder to forgive Spike because you look at the scene in the bathroom, and you see your ex or date or stepdad or some random guy at a party or some jerk in an alley, and you know how it affected you. With the metaphor of vamping, no one automatically makes that leap.

On a plot level, I don't think Spike would have legitimately wanted Buffy to beciome a vampire (at least in S6: S2-S4 Spike would have been like, "Heh, a *real* vampire slayer. Cool."). But I don't think he ever consciously said to himself, "I want to rape her," either. I think he was angry and rejected and hurt and did the first thing he thought of. On *that* level, vamping would have worked.

Yeah, I can definitely see how having it one step removed would be easier, but isn't better that they tackle these things head on? I don't know. My personal jury are still out the back.
However, from another angle, as I said up thread -

I think if they had Spike try to vamp Buffy it would have negated his entire story since he got chipped. The irony of the attempted rape was that it was because of the "progress" that he'd made.

Is it just me or would it have been far more entertaining if Spikes trigger song was not "Never Leave Me", but instead "Saftey Dance", by Men Without Hats.

Although the believability when it comes to continiuty on the show may perhaps be in jepoardy considering the song did not exist quite yet for Williams mother to sing.

I think if they had Spike try to vamp Buffy it would have negated his entire story since he got chipped. The irony of the attempted rape was that it was because of the "progress" that he'd made.

Do you really think so? Because all season long, he wasn't trying to rise to her level, as much as he was trying to convince her that she'd come back wrong, and belonged in the dark with him, that they were "different", etc. A lot of the progress he made in the first place, was made because he had little choice that didn't involve severe pain to himself.

And he did make a lot of progress in that not only could he not kill humans, but he seemed to overcome much of the obvious desire to do so, had become fairly accustomed to the chip (although still frustrated, like when he couldn't help Buffy fight the demons that just turned out to be human muggers). But it seems the point of having a catalyst was to show Spike that without a soul, he was still an evil thing - he was still someone who couldn't be a monster and couldn't be a man. Would it have taken away from his story to have that revelation come out of a more vampyric act? Not for me. Or, put it this way, I think it would have taken away less from his journey, than having Buffy call her attempted rapist "a hottie" took away from hers.

What I meant was that it would've been really illogical to have Spike try to vamp Buffy in Seeing Red. However if the writer's intention from the get go was for Spike to do that then they could've played out the season to make the vamping make sesne, if you see what I mean.

It's not so much me having a problem with the vamping as opposed to the attempted raping, it's that it wouldn't have made sense within the context of the season that we've seen.