Is it just me or would it have been far more entertaining if Spikes trigger song was not "Never Leave Me", but instead "Saftey Dance", by Men Without Hats.

Although the believability when it comes to continiuty on the show may perhaps be in jepoardy considering the song did not exist quite yet for Williams mother to sing.

I think if they had Spike try to vamp Buffy it would have negated his entire story since he got chipped. The irony of the attempted rape was that it was because of the "progress" that he'd made.

Do you really think so? Because all season long, he wasn't trying to rise to her level, as much as he was trying to convince her that she'd come back wrong, and belonged in the dark with him, that they were "different", etc. A lot of the progress he made in the first place, was made because he had little choice that didn't involve severe pain to himself.

And he did make a lot of progress in that not only could he not kill humans, but he seemed to overcome much of the obvious desire to do so, had become fairly accustomed to the chip (although still frustrated, like when he couldn't help Buffy fight the demons that just turned out to be human muggers). But it seems the point of having a catalyst was to show Spike that without a soul, he was still an evil thing - he was still someone who couldn't be a monster and couldn't be a man. Would it have taken away from his story to have that revelation come out of a more vampyric act? Not for me. Or, put it this way, I think it would have taken away less from his journey, than having Buffy call her attempted rapist "a hottie" took away from hers.

What I meant was that it would've been really illogical to have Spike try to vamp Buffy in Seeing Red. However if the writer's intention from the get go was for Spike to do that then they could've played out the season to make the vamping make sesne, if you see what I mean.

It's not so much me having a problem with the vamping as opposed to the attempted raping, it's that it wouldn't have made sense within the context of the season that we've seen.

Some people aren't charming or attractive enough to deserve a date in the natural order of things

I'd like to be clear when I say that the men I don't want to date are not being judged on any sort of objective "you'll never know the love of a woman" scale. Dating is subjective. As I said, there are wonderful beautiful charming men ... that I'm not attracted to. And you know what? They deserve someone that's attracted to them.

Otherwise, I might just be using them.

Michele: attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape, attempted rape.

If I had a macro for it, I'd use it. But just like IJS, NSM, ITA, AFAIK, IIRC -- why bother? I am that lazy. But it's not dismissive. When I say AFAIK, I don't mean a diluted version of "as far as I know". I mean precisely that, just as AR means precisely "attempted rape" and "SMG" means precisely Sarah Michelle Gellar.

UTTAD --

But in a season where Spike was constantly telling Buffy that she was a creature of darkness (or whatever) just like him, and that she didn't belong with "them", and when she rejected him because he was an evil, souless thing, but when he was convinced that she came back wrong (and add in here a chunk of his dialogue from Normal Again, that I can't remember), I do think an attempted vamping would have made as much sense in the context of all of the season 6 stuff. He felt she was wrong, martyring herself to a self she no longer was. He felt she was rejecting her own darkness, and that's why she was rejecting him.

I don't think Spike would have been happy with a vamped Buffy, but him doing it out of frustration would have made as much sense as the attempted rape (which did make sense), but would have (to my eyes) compromised Buffy's integrity less (and hamstrung their story less) in season 7.

In short I think haveing the AR was a mistake, but not inconsistent with the characters. It was a mistake because to deal with it properly would required more energy, and probably more story bandwidth than they were willing to spare.

I agree with this. Part of the problem with the writers' decision to use rape as a plot point is that rape is very much a real-world threat, in the way that vampires and memory spells and demon cyborgs aren't. In a show like Buffy, where the violence is generally on a supernatural or allegorical level, bringing in realistic violence is very jarring. It can be done well on Buffy. Look at "The Body", which took a normal [non-supernatural] character, gave her a real-world death, and beautifully portrayed a real-world reaction by the other characters. They spent a lot of time and effort on that episode, and it payed off.

In "Seeing Red", on the other hand, they took a real-world violent act (the rape), an act that would carry a good deal of emotional meaning for a good-sized chunk of the audience, and they treated it like just another plot point. They picked a true realistic threat, portrayed it distubingly realistically on screen, and then gave it very non-realistic consequences.

I understand that they wanted to show that Spike and Buffy's relationship had hit rock bottom, to give Spike a motivation to seek out a soul, but they chose the wrong plot device. You want to do a rape episode? Fine. Take the time to do it right. You want a quick plot device? Fine. Don't pick an issue as deep, complex, emotionally charged and as serious as rape.

Cindy Yeah, I see what you're saying, it's just a gut level thing for me. The attempted rape made more sense than him vamping her. At that point.

Is it possible your view of it has been coloured by what happens in S7?

I'm really enjoying this discussion, although I don't have much to contribute. I have one minor quibble regarding the following from Cindy:

not only could he not kill humans, but he seemed to overcome much of the obvious desire to do so

When Spike realized his chip didn't hurt him when he attacked Buffy, his very next step was to find tasty young morsel to feed on. When his chip kicked in at that time, he realized the chip wasn't working with Buffy only.

I think this says quite a lot about Spike at this point. He was still ready and willing to attack and feed as soon as he was able. IMO, any progress he made through Season 5 was immediately nullified in that action, because he showed the only two things restraining him were the chip and his feelings for Buffy. I don't think he would have hurt anyone Buffy cared for, but he would have happily drained the rest of the human population.

I'm not convinced that, even with a soul, he was willing or able to give up those urges easily, which is how the FE was able to manipulate him so easily.

Those are just my feelings with regard to Spike wanting to return to his old ways.

I think if they had Spike try to vamp Buffy it would have negated his entire story since he got chipped. The irony of the attempted rape was that it was because of the "progress" that he'd made.

I think both are equivalent in that way. Either would have shown that no matter how hard he tries to be "good," frustration and anger can aort of bring the (metaphiorical and literal) demon out in him.

I think that ones interpretation of events being colored by Season 7 in valid. A choice an author makes in the middle of a novel can be either made to make sense by the rest of the novel, or can not be backed up by the rest of the text. Similarly, ME could have done things in season 7 would have made the attempted rape a better plot point. Instead they really backed away from it. I assume this was because it had unintended effects-- that in fact the story they wanted to tell would have been better served by a vamping. There could have been a good, different story that included the attempted rape and the soul, but that was not the one they chose to tell. So as a whole, the cohesiveness of the Buffy story did not work as well.