I thought that was just derivative at first, but I knew it couldn't be just accidental because that was one of the most memorable moments of Angel's season. So I decided that Fury was trying to hammer down the point that Spike is still a dangerous serial killer by reminding us that even Angel is dangerous -- a soul doesn't make a vampire a good or safe person. He has Buffy say, "He has a soul now, Giles. Spike won't let himself harm anyone," in that episode, but I know he thinks she's wrong.

Watching LMPTM, and I'm seeing this striking similiarity between what Spike says to Wood, "I'm not under The First's or anyone else's influence, now. I just wanted you to know that before I killed you" and Angel's meeting with Wes in the hospital room, "You know I'm not Angelus..." and then smothers him with a pillow. (Also reminded of ita's mighty howl at the screen during that scene that just about knocked me out of bed).

I might have brought that up during the run (although snarky-like, when I said "I liked this arc better when it was Holtz, and this scene better when it was 'Forgiving'.")

But, yeah. AndAtSdiditbettermystorystickingtoit.

So. Thessaly and I are continuing our Season 6 marathon, and I have to admit, I'm enjoying it more than I rememmber. In fact, I was totally fine all the way from Bargaining to Smashed.

Then we hit the pull of suck, which, unfortunately, is still substandard. Still, we've now gone through Wrecked to DoubleMeat Palace, which means the worst is out of the way. Odd phenomenon, though--I remembered all the bad parts, but the good parts took me completely by surprise. Like they were blocked or something.

Next up, "Dead Things." Thank goodness.

Kassto - I'm sorry if my term [Spoldemort] offended you. But as I said I didn't mean anyone here (there were plenty of people here, myself included who were very into the Spike-Buffy story), and as you yourself wouldn't classify yourself as a nutter, well then, it really has nothing to do with you, does it? You have to understand, I've spent over a year hearing Spoldemorts tell me Spike didn't try to rape Buffy ...[etc]

Cindy, no sweat, I have taken no offence whatsoever at the term. I was just kind of gently mocking it and mocking myself at the same time. I think what I meant about suppressing my Spoldemort thoughts was that the whole Spike/Buffy thing has been a major part of my attachment to the show but I also knew that my thoughts on it would probably not find that much favour on this board (and I base that on having read much of what has been said over the past three years on this thread). And being new around here, I didn't want to stick my foot too far into my mouth. On the other hand I badly want to say what I want to say, and am still forming my attitudes as I write this.

One obvious difference between me and many who write here seems to be that my watching of Buffy (S1-6 anyway) was done in total isolation, ie watched mostly on my own and with no knowledge of what fandom in general was thinking or saying or reacting to. I watched the first six seasons over about four months and only then delved into the net and discovered what other people were saying. So my reactions to the show were quite my own, and innocent of the politics of fandom going on around the world. Therefore I wasn't reacting against fringe nutter groups because until just a couple of months ago, I didn't know they existed.

Obsession with Spike and his treatment by Buffy may have taken over some sectors of fandom, but I don't believe it took over the show. I totally disagree with the guy who wrote the piece in Salon saying Spike had ruined BtVS by assuming a Fonzie-ish presence in a show that had always been about outsiders. Well Spike may have seemed cool to fans of the show, but he certainly wasn't to the other characters, most of whom always hated him. He was the ultimate outsider, unacceptable to both humans and demons. Fonzie on the other hand was always the really cool guy who everyone loved on Happy Days -- the guys jealous of him and the girls all over him. So, crappy comparison in my book.

The way one looks at Spike/Buffy also depends a lot on one's sexual politics -- which can be a pretty fraught and sensitive area for a lot of people, because those attitudes are often formed out of very raw, close-to-the-bone personal experiences. My attitudes are a weird mixture of feminist, conservative and Camille Paglia. I thought B/S were an electric combination right from the first inkling of any attraction. The sex/violence line they walked made it dangerous and sexy and attractive. And it was written and played as dangerous, sexy and attractive. And the writers did really interesting things with Spike. They made him complicated, conflicted and confused, and they showed him try to change without a soul. That continued the kind of greying up of demons' moral capabilities that ME had been trying to show in S4 when Buffy attacked Riley for his Initiative-style black and white attitudes to demons.

But suddenly the writers went all black and white again, halfway through S6. They were saying that if the B/S thing was getting twisted, it wasn't Buffy's fault for treating him really badly. It was because Spike was soulless and therefore evil and incapable of love and therefore Buffy was never going to love him. They also indicated that it was morally excusable for Buffy to use Spike for sex (even though he was in love with her), because she was depressed, but totally beyond the pale for her to love him. What does that say about the moral sense of the writers/Buffy?

But, ME isn't going to dump Spuffy because it still has too much juice in it and the fans like it. But they have to scrub Spike up more so blackandwhite!Buffy will be able to love him. And out the window go all the interesting grey areas that would have made a proper relationship between Buffy and unsouled Spike so damned fascinating.It was a cowardly copout in my book.

So they have Spike try to rape Buffy. There's no way I would try, as some fans obviously have, to say it wasn't attempted rape. What I would say is that it actually disturbed me less than Buffy beating Spike to a pulp in Dead Things, which seemed a lot more vicious and destructive. Secondly, it seemed out of character for Spike and used clearly as a plot device to make him so guilty he'd go off and get a soul. (Hey, soulless vampire feeling guilty. How often does that happen? But we'll just let that go.)

Spike's story in S6 was that he would never be able to be good enough (for Buffy) without a soul. This story is seriously weakened however, when all we see around Spike is people with souls who are generally behaving worse than he is, and giving him absolutely no credit for the changes he had managed to make. If they wanted to show that a soulless creature was always going to turn out evil, it would have strengthened that argument a lot more if Spike had been shown some kindness and consideration, but still slipped back into really bad demon ways.

Instead he tries to rape Buffy, and comes across like a man rather than a demon; like a souled man who is drunk, desperate, stupid and wrong. And plenty of men with souls commit rape. Another thing about the soul that annoys me -- Joss told the NY Times in an interview just before the S7 finale showed, that he didn't really know what a soul was, and that it changed according to whatever the plot required it to be. That strikes me as a pretty cavalier attitude considering how important the concept was in the show.

Then in season 7 Spike was all cleaned up and souled, when all it really looked like

It is rare for me to be so disappointed when someone hits the 6000-character limit! I hope you can remember the rest of what you were going to say.

Um, hi, I'm new.

I thought you guys might be interested in this link - Kita's Livejournal about stuff cut from Chosen about Pod!Giles characterisation.

Damn damn, lost the end of my post. Umm... trying to remember...

Then in season 7 Spike was all cleaned up and souled, when all it really looked like was that he'd had his personality removed. God, even his voice was boring. He was tortured and tormented in really unconvincing fashion, died a great heroic death and became worthy of Buffy's love. So they made the relationship possible only by removing from Spike everything that gave the relationship life. So -- disappointed here.

But I'm trying not to be obsessive. There were plenty of other things about the show to treasure. I'm just sorry they copped out on that one and that the whole Spuffy thing got distorted by obsessive fans.

And, as I said Cindy, no offence taken. I always thought, from reading heaps of this thread, that you made lots of sense.

Um, hi, I'm new.

Very new. We have user number 998, and she's a real person. Will this board full of numbersluts be able to keep from grabbing user IDs 999 and 1000 for secret identities? I think user #1000 is likely to be named "Sue Donym." (That's a great idea for a pseud -- I just saw it in the comments to Kita's blog. Her journal is interesting too.)

Definitely an interesting link. I'm going to accept "Dawn as the Key would also had been able to wear the amulet, but Buffy doesn't choose her, because she wants her to live," as my personal canon. I don't know where Kita's getting her information, but it's definitely plausible that this was planned for Chosen, but didn't fit. Because they would've had to explain all the powers of the amulet, too.

Someone should post kita's post On Cons and Slash to the Angel thread. It's only spoilery pending Jim's vote.

Instead he tries to rape Buffy, and comes across like a man rather than a demon; like a souled man who is drunk, desperate, stupid and wrong. And plenty of men with souls commit rape.

Yes, that!

I think this is also the reason so many people got upset that Buffy was able to forgive Spike. Because it read as though ME endorsed forgiving a man who commits a rape because he is drunk, desperate, and stupid.

I don't believe rape is worse than murder or torture. However, the murders & tortures that happen in the Buffyverse are removed from reality. None of us will ever be murdered because we're trying to restore somebody's soul or tortured because we have information about releasing an ancient demon. So seeing those behaviors forgiven isn't likely to lead anyone to think that those things are OK in real life.

However, I know at least two women who have been assaulted by ex-boyfriends who thought this strategy might renew the relationship. Those relationships are never going to become something healthy. Not necessarily because the guys are evil, nor because the women are victims, but because the relationship itself has become so diseased that it can't return to anything healthy, no matter who travels to Africa. And the way the AR was treated was too damned close to real life. That may also be why it bothered people more than Willow's mind-wipe - because that mind-wipe thing is never going to happen outside of the Buffyverse.

Ironically, the fact that JM is such a good actor contributed to this. He was able to find so much sympathy for the character that the viewers identified with him and understood why he was doing what he was doing. Even while we knew it was despicable.

Yes, that!

I think this is also the reason so many people got upset that Buffy was able to forgive Spike. Because it read as though ME endorsed forgiving a man who commits a rape because he is drunk, desperate, and stupid.

Yes! That Joss intended to write Buffy as having emotional reasons for wanting Spike to stay around, the big device they used to make Spike seek a soul would have sat better with me, had it been more demonic in nature. Within the context of Seeing Red alone, I thought the attempted rape scene/device was right. I only object to it within the context of Buffy intending to have Spike babysit Dawn right after (although I tend to fanwank that, as her still being in shock and denial about the attack), and in the larger context of season 7.

I don't believe rape is worse than murder or torture. However, the murders & tortures that happen in the Buffyverse are removed from reality. None of us will ever be murdered because we're trying to restore somebody's soul or tortured because we have information about releasing an ancient demon. So seeing those behaviors forgiven isn't likely to lead anyone to think that those things are OK in real life.

I think of rape as torture. And let's face it - all of these things suck. That aside, you're spot on about how those acts seems removed from reality.