The only flimsy reason I have for thinking that they had consumated things is that Giles is not surprised in "Passion"

He isn't? I thought I saw a "huh?" on his face.

when he believes that she let herself into his house and decorated it quite romantically and elaborately.

Of course, anyone living in Sunnydale should have more of a "run screaming from home" reaction when they discover things inside that they didn't put there. And especially Giles.

Leading me to think that he gave her a key at some point and that usually implies intimacy.

Of course, no one living in Sunnydale ever, ever locks their front door. Especially not Giles.

(He's quite willing to complain about people taking advantage of that fact, though.)

I didn't say Oz didn't bear responsibility - just that his sin was more defensible and less of a betrayal than Willow's actions with Xander. Willow knowingly and consciously played footsie and stole kisses.

Stuff and nonsense. Willow's betrayal grew out of lifelong feeling for Xander. They had agreed to stop the messing around (which was never planned) and in fact, Willow was in the process of doing a de-lusting spell when Spike captured her and Xander. I give Oz a pass for his first time with Veruca, as well, but for the second time? Pish. Oz can talk to the hand. Any hand. But not Willowhand.

He broke my her heart.

He broke my her heart.

Me too. The final scene of the episode with Willow, ' My whole life, I've never loved anything else'? Cried. Like. A. Baby.

Oz can talk to the hand.

Word. He had Buffy standing right in front of him asking about the second werewolf, asking whether he was okay. All jokes about taciturn character traits aside, all he had to do was open his mouth and ask for help. And the only reading I can take from that scene, as much as I love Oz, is that he was choosing hairy-gorilla sex with a girl he didn't even like over Willow. So I tend to agree with Willow on this one--it doesn't compare to what she and Xander did.

I too see a difference between attraction/kissing and actions-you-know-will-(and-do)-lead-to-sex. But the real difference is that Oz failed and bailed, whereas Willow and Xander failed and fell all over themselves apologizing, trying to make amends, sometimes even in that egotistical way that Oz called Willow on (she's trying to feel better about herself, and is no longer apologizing for Oz's benefit).

People fail; that happens. (It even happens with human premeditation.) It's how they react to that failure that showcases character. And in Oz's case, the bailure (though not the failure) was extratextually mandated.

Actually, as much as I want to refuse Oz all forms of cookies because of the poor decisions he made here, his leaving didn't seem to me to fall into the poor decision category. He was playing with fire in respect to Veruca--all his fooling around nearly got people killed and if those decisions were affected by his wolfish nature, then I can understand the need to find some space to think about what that means.

On the other hand, it fits very well with his pattern of bailing when things get emotionally fraught so I'm just back to 'No cookie for Oz!'

Of course, anyone living in Sunnydale should have more of a "run screaming from home" reaction when they discover things inside that they didn't put there. And especially Giles.

To be fair, candles, rose petals, and wine aren't the kind of signs a monster would usually leave of its break-in. Angelus being the notable exception, of course.

Leading me to think that he gave her a key at some point and that usually implies intimacy.

Of course, no one living in Sunnydale ever, ever locks their front door. Especially not Giles.

Maybe he fell victim to stereotypical thinking about Gypsies and assumed she picked the lock?

He gets a pass for the first time - but he made the decision to have Veruca with him in his cage whilst still a human, and that's where the infidelity occurred.

With you. And if you just take into account the events of that one evening, yes, it was by then a choice between dragging her into the cage, knowing what would happen, v. letting her roam free and probably kill someone. But that's not where the Oz/Veruca sitch got off the ground - for quite a while before then, even before he knew she was a wolf, he was aware that he was drawn to her, and it was clearly upsetting Willow. So I don't quite buy that he was forced into making that choice - he set it up, consiously or unconsiously, to be that way.

he set it up, consiously or unconsiously, to be that way.

Yeah, but...I just don't see his motive being primarily desire. If Veruca wasn't a werewolf he wouldn't have strayed.

Oz's greatest fear was that he'd kill somebody while in a wolfy state. So I see his motive as being a fairly complex mix: wanting to know more about the wolfy nature, attraction to somebody who not only had the wolf in her, but was reconciled to it (though he himself would never make the choices Veruca did), sexual desire on a very basic animal level, some sympathetic desire to protect Veruca, while at the same time protecting people from Veruca.

The Scoobies solution to Oz's lycanthropy was merely to lock him up once a month. That never would've been enough for somebody like Oz, who was both very thoughtful and ethical. He definitely risked and betrayed his relationship to Willow to explore that dangerous aspect of his person - but that just seems like a far more defensible choice than simply acting on a lifetime of feelings, as Willow did with Xander.

I don't know - if you look at Oz's story separate from Willow, positing him as a main charcter rather than an auxilliary one - he needed to know more about the implications of being a werewolf than anybody in the group could ever provide. This is carried through offstage, where Oz uses the impetus of the events in Wild at Heart to go learn how to control the wolf. A huge accomplishment - probably unprecedented. On balance, this is probably more important to Oz and to potential innocent victims than Willow's heartbreak.

His motives were far different than what were essentially fairly selfish choices by Willow and Xander.

Thank you, David! I tried to come up with that sort of post about three times, and just gave up in patheticness.

Take it from another angle. Buffy's gone to enormous lengths to explore her Slayerness, Willow's done the same for her witchiness. I think it can be safely said that when it comes to inherent aspects of themselves that ME characters have, any lengths necessary become (at least at the time) acceptable.

I honestly don't think you can even really compare the two situations, the Oz/Veruca thing and the Willow/Xander thing. They're from very, very different places involving different emotions and character personalities. One of the aspects of the Oz/Veruca scene in WAH was the fierceness of Oz. He's...well, laconic. In a sense, it's like he's punishing himself for being what he is by being with Veruca. I think they had the definition of a punishing kiss. And while Veruca thought she was getting ever closer to Oz, he was all the farther away.

Yeah, but there were other ways to explore his wolfy nature than by fucking. I think the betrayal is on a par with the Willow/Xander kissyface. However, I really liked the Oz/Veruca story because it was a great metaphor for what happens at that age--testing one's limits, exploring the dark places inside oneself, acting selfishly--Sex is powerful mojo and when it is new to us its pull is even stronger. We need to to test (and soemtimes step over) those boundaries to know what it's like and the pain it causes ourselves and others so we can grow up.