I mean really, it sounds like what Rafmun really wants is to be put in charge of the board, and be able to dictate who gets to talk about what, and who gets to be here and who doesn't.

Easiest way to do that would be to start his own board. IJS.

it sounds like what Rafmun really wants is to be put in charge of the board, and be able to dictate who gets to talk about what, and who gets to be here and who doesn't.

I don't get that from him.

I get someone who made a bunch of big allegations and didn't want to take the responsibility for defending them so he reacted to questioning with more big allegations, which is not a great behavioral pattern, but I don't think he wants to be Board Dictator.

Newbie beej is now gone, possibly dissuading other lurkers from posting. We're not to know, but there are over 1000 registered participants here.

Every single open Internet forum, from message boards to mailing lists to Usenet groups, has more lurkers than posters. If it's a flaw, it's a flaw in the nature of Internet forums, not a flaw specific to the Phoenix; and I am not convinced it's a flaw rather than human nature.

Citing silence as support is not a convincing rhetorical strategy.

Defending feelings is really draining.

If they'd be presented as feelings rather than objective observations by the initial poster, considerably less defense would have been required.

I meant my feelings Micole. I'm not speaking for Rafmun.

Okay. It was unfair of me to respond as if you were both saying the same thing, and I apologize and retract the last statement.

I respect Numfar's right to pull out of the discussion when it no longer feels profitable to him.

I've been staying out of this discussion so far (because I was gone so much of yesterday, and it took a while -- even skimming -- to catch up with the 565 unread posts facing me this morning).

But -- agreed with the above sentiment. Nobody has a duty to take part in a discussion. And since Rafmun has expressed a desire to pull out, it's fair not to direct any more questions at him.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean discussion of that topic ends. Rafmun's topics are on the table and can't be withdrawn. And as we've proved time and time again (frequently in these very Bureaucracy threads), the Buffistas are geniuses at discussing a topic for ages.

And a little navel-gazing, soul-searching, or whatever you want to call it about the board, where it's going, how posters and non-posters perceive it isn't a bad thing now and then.

Rafmun, if you toss out a bold statement, that many people disagree with, the burden of proof is on you.

Actually, I meant to toss out an observation, and qualified it as such, saying it may or may not be vallid, but it's what I perceived. How do I prove an observation? I'm not going to name names. Others *have* outlined issues - 4 or 5 above. And more than a half dozen - maybe as many as 12 - other long termers have said they have had similar feelings.

That's what should be discussed, imo. It's not only not all about me, but it's mostly not at all about me. It's about the board, and the group dynamics. But again, as I said from the beginning:

Let me reiterate - the above is the simple observation of a single person. It is offered only to the extent that the perspective of a lurker and newbie may be valuable in some way. If it is not valuable, useful, wanted or welcome, then please feel free to ignore.

I am not moving on, because we have some important community stuff under discussion, as painful as that can be.

Excellent. I think discussion should continue, and without me, and believe it or not, that was kinda my hope at the beginning.

(In other words, Rafmun? You want to move on, just quit posting on the subject. People might just think you were "unduly influencing" things by trying to make us stop now that you don't want to talk about it any more.)

Happily, and will gladly do so if folks will stop asking me direct questions. Heck, you're absolutely right - even if they ask direct questions, I'm headin' out.

But I would ask that in the future, when someone feels a poster is out of line, they email them or ask them to clarify in-thread. Letting it fester until it turns into a percieved pattern does not seem like the greatest option.

Actually, it's not that I saw a specific person being pissy as the problem, but rather repeated incidences of pissyness becoming more accepted, and hurting more people - newbs and long termers alike. Naming names of past problems didn't seem like a positive thing, but rather asking for a slight refocussing on issues/tone/approach that at one time was the norm here - friendlyness - seemed like the way to go. Perhaps I did that poorly.

Anyway...

Take care folks - ultimately I just think the board should be comfortable for as many people as possible - not just those who enjoy confrontation and smackdowns. But that is only an opinion.

Going back to Beej for a second, I just wanted to thank bicyclops for getting in touch with her and giving her a chance to see the discussion about her. That was a good thing to do.

I get someone who made a bunch of big allegations and didn't want to take the responsibility for defending them so he reacted to questioning with more big allegations, which is not a great behavioral pattern, but I don't think he wants to be Board Dictator.

Yeah, okay. I was being snotty.

I know there are some people, many of whom I respect and care for a great deal, who have said there is some validity to Rafmun's point, and I will go back and read those people's posts, and give them long consideration, and think hard about where I fit in to that, and anything I may need to do to change.

If people I respect commented on it, I suppose there's something there.

But as far as Rafmun is concerned, I think you're a troll. You (and others) may decide that means I'm a mean, rotten ol' bastard, but I can point to exactly why I think that (which I have done), and tell you to your face, rather than coyly hinting at it.

Cindy has left as well

Cindy is still here posting as Xanderella.