I think what my daughter's trying to say is: nyah nyah nyah nyah.

Joyce ,'Same Time, Same Place'


Bureaucracy 2: Like Sartre, Only Longer  

A thread to discuss naming threads, board policy, new thread suggestions, and anything else that has to do with board administration and maintenance. Guaranteed to include lively debate and polls. Natter discouraged, but not deleted.

Current Stompy Feet: ita, Jon B, DXMachina, P.M. Marcontell, Liese S., amych


Lyra Jane - Mar 30, 2004 11:50:33 am PST #8161 of 10005
Up with the sun

It's interesting to me that Rafmun is saying that he "heard about" gentler Buffista days, not that he "read" them. To me, that suggests that he's going by megan's comments about her participation in the board rather than by posts he's read himself. (Please correct me if this is a wrong impression, Rafmun.)

If that's the case, I might respectfully point out that there's a big difference between something someone tells you about and something you've experienced yourself. Plenty of things are all golden-colored and fuzzy when seen through the eyes of someone who loves them, and much uglier and harsher when experienced first-hand.

Edit: Which is not meant to discredit Rafmun or discount his points, but I do think that the issues he's complaining about are ones where board experience matters.


DavidS - Mar 30, 2004 11:51:05 am PST #8162 of 10005
"Look, son, if it's good enough for Shirley Bassey, it's good enough for you."

Asking for compassion and a little less harshness translates to 'descending deeper into hyperbole'?

I started this discussion by raising this very point. And what I was trying to do was to push this notion closer to the center. That's really all that can be done.

One reason the voting causes friction is because any extended talk in Bureaucracy about tone or direction becomes a lightning rod for general crankiness. People address their long held grievances. Which is what is happening now. And that's okay - they need to be addressed. But sometimes those aren't board problems. They're not issues that can be resolved by the community - they're issues that the individual has because they're feeling out of sync with the ever-migrating center.


Dana - Mar 30, 2004 11:58:10 am PST #8163 of 10005
I'm terrifically busy with my ennui.

Just as an amusing sidenote interjected: I just re-read the thing in the FAQ about Hec and Knut, and Dana TOTALLY imposed her will on others! Kinda. She didn't get to pick their new names, as it turned out, but she sure tried.

Hey!

That could be why Knut left....

Hey!

and Dana TOTALLY imposed her will on others!

No picking on me while I'm in class!

That being said, I would suggest that the first step would be acknowledging that there is a problem.

That obviously seems to be a major challenge in itself.

Rafmun, (anyone else have to spell that out backwards each time?) I find the tone of your posts a major distraction to the points you're trying to make. To be honest, it reads like you think you have the on correct opinion, and when anyone disagrees with you, you dismiss them by accusing them of misdirection. Which is basically the same thing you're complaining about.

I do believe everyone has a right to comment on the board. That's why we have all these threads. But one thing that will absolutely not help in this discussion, where we have at least twenty people running in circles, trying to figure out if there's a problem and how we fix it, is taking that condescending tone.


Rafmun - Mar 30, 2004 11:59:59 am PST #8164 of 10005
I'm made of felt and my....hey, who's hand is that?

Most importantly, keep an eye out for those few far-between posters who always seem to get their ways simply by persistence of posts, intractibility, refusal to engage on issues through either denial or misdirection.

Self-referencially quoting myself, in a referencial manner, in response to piling on.

No, I'm not being ignored, and yes, a number of people have chimed in agreeing with the issues I've raised, while a few others have suggested they'd be more aware of the situation in the future.

But then there is a whole other small, agressive, assertive, verbose group that is cross examining my cred rather than discussing my points - calling the newbie cheeky (this is. A. Bad thing. Here?), taking offense, suggesting my notions are descending into hyperbole, that my ideas 'suck', being defensive, suggesting there is no problem etc

How do you, gentle veteran, think a Newbie would feel and respond to the totality of this discussion? Encouraged, or put off and unlikely to consider it 'safe' to express an unpopular idea again?

Everyone will answer that for themselves, so I will leave it at that.


Jesse - Mar 30, 2004 12:04:18 pm PST #8165 of 10005
Sometimes I trip on how happy we could be.

I keep trying to stay out of this...

I actually do think newbies should think twice before posting an unpopular opinion. Not that they shouldn't do it, but they should think twice. Because we do take shit seriously, and we also are a community. Shit, I don't know, can someone just Nilly poor Wolfram's brouhaha? All of this was said then.


Rafmun - Mar 30, 2004 12:04:57 pm PST #8166 of 10005
I'm made of felt and my....hey, who's hand is that?

Rafmun, (anyone else have to spell that out backwards each time?) I find the tone of your posts a major distraction to the points you're trying to make.

Hey, whatever tone you choose to read into my posts is your right completely.

I explicitly stated the tone I intend my post(s) to have at the outset, and I will keep everyone updated when I want that to change.


Atropa - Mar 30, 2004 12:07:32 pm PST #8167 of 10005
The artist formerly associated with cupcakes.

How do you, gentle veteran, think a Newbie would feel and respond to the totality of this discussion? Encouraged, or put off and unlikely to consider it 'safe' to express an unpopular idea again?

Honestly? I think a Newbie would still post after reading this discussion. I also think a Newbie might come away with the assumption that there are some posters who are annoyed at and/or are holding grudges at other posters.


bon bon - Mar 30, 2004 12:08:07 pm PST #8168 of 10005
It's five thousand for kissing, ten thousand for snuggling... End of list.

cross examining my cred

I'll admit to doing this. Your first post stated that your authority came from your position as a knowledgeable observer. You then referred twice to "mods" which is something we don't just not have, we've made a clear policy of not having, which cast doubt on your knowledge. You've also stated repeatedly that people who are responsible for the behavior complained of refuse to recognize it. How do you propose we become persuaded in order to recognize it? Accept you at your word (which, according to your logic, we won't do) or try to become convinced by establishing your credibility?

If I'm misdirecting, well, I don't care. This is my concern, and my right to ask you if you want to persuade people.


Sean K - Mar 30, 2004 12:08:27 pm PST #8169 of 10005
You can't leave me to my own devices; my devices are Nap and Eat. -Zenkitty

But then there is a whole other small, agressive, assertive, verbose group that is cross examining my cred rather than discussing my points - calling the newbie cheeky (this is. A. Bad thing. Here?), taking offense, suggesting my notions are descending into hyperbole, that my ideas 'suck', being defensive, suggesting there is no problem etc

See, this entire paragraph isn't an assertion, so much as an aside to posters you are now refusing to have a direct conversation with, designed merely to push buttons, rather than further the debate, while pretending to be nobly above such action.

What's more, it's clear to me from your command of the English language that you understand perfectly well what you're doing with your rhetorical constructs, and are doing it deliberately and intentionally now (if not before).

So, if you would like to continue the direct conversation I was trying to have with you (just because I disagree with you does not mean I was talking past you, or trying to misdirect the debate), fine, otherwise your smug air of superiority over debate ethics is compete hogwash.


Rafmun - Mar 30, 2004 12:09:51 pm PST #8170 of 10005
I'm made of felt and my....hey, who's hand is that?

actually do think newbies should think twice before posting an unpopular opinion. Not that they shouldn't do it, but they should think twice.

I agree. I thought lots about this. More than lots. Months.

I only presume to post it b/c I feel that long-termers who wish similar ideas expressed don't feel the ability to write it. Unburdened by the politics or worries over 'feather-ruffling' that others might have, I am in the unique position to be able to offer my observations without really being a part of previous kerfuffles - and as such, can take most posts at their face value.

I'd like to make it clear, however, that what I wrote, though informed by discussions with long-termers, is just a collection of my own observations in recent months. And again - if you don't like it, or think it valueless, than feel free to ignore.