Most importantly, keep an eye out for those few far-between posters who always seem to get their ways simply by persistence of posts, intractibility, refusal to engage on issues through either denial or misdirection.

Self-referencially quoting myself, in a referencial manner, in response to piling on.

No, I'm not being ignored, and yes, a number of people have chimed in agreeing with the issues I've raised, while a few others have suggested they'd be more aware of the situation in the future.

But then there is a whole other small, agressive, assertive, verbose group that is cross examining my cred rather than discussing my points - calling the newbie cheeky (this is. A. Bad thing. Here?), taking offense, suggesting my notions are descending into hyperbole, that my ideas 'suck', being defensive, suggesting there is no problem etc

How do you, gentle veteran, think a Newbie would feel and respond to the totality of this discussion? Encouraged, or put off and unlikely to consider it 'safe' to express an unpopular idea again?

Everyone will answer that for themselves, so I will leave it at that.

I keep trying to stay out of this...

I actually do think newbies should think twice before posting an unpopular opinion. Not that they shouldn't do it, but they should think twice. Because we do take shit seriously, and we also are a community. Shit, I don't know, can someone just Nilly poor Wolfram's brouhaha? All of this was said then.

Rafmun, (anyone else have to spell that out backwards each time?) I find the tone of your posts a major distraction to the points you're trying to make.

Hey, whatever tone you choose to read into my posts is your right completely.

I explicitly stated the tone I intend my post(s) to have at the outset, and I will keep everyone updated when I want that to change.

How do you, gentle veteran, think a Newbie would feel and respond to the totality of this discussion? Encouraged, or put off and unlikely to consider it 'safe' to express an unpopular idea again?

Honestly? I think a Newbie would still post after reading this discussion. I also think a Newbie might come away with the assumption that there are some posters who are annoyed at and/or are holding grudges at other posters.

cross examining my cred

I'll admit to doing this. Your first post stated that your authority came from your position as a knowledgeable observer. You then referred twice to "mods" which is something we don't just not have, we've made a clear policy of not having, which cast doubt on your knowledge. You've also stated repeatedly that people who are responsible for the behavior complained of refuse to recognize it. How do you propose we become persuaded in order to recognize it? Accept you at your word (which, according to your logic, we won't do) or try to become convinced by establishing your credibility?

If I'm misdirecting, well, I don't care. This is my concern, and my right to ask you if you want to persuade people.

But then there is a whole other small, agressive, assertive, verbose group that is cross examining my cred rather than discussing my points - calling the newbie cheeky (this is. A. Bad thing. Here?), taking offense, suggesting my notions are descending into hyperbole, that my ideas 'suck', being defensive, suggesting there is no problem etc

See, this entire paragraph isn't an assertion, so much as an aside to posters you are now refusing to have a direct conversation with, designed merely to push buttons, rather than further the debate, while pretending to be nobly above such action.

What's more, it's clear to me from your command of the English language that you understand perfectly well what you're doing with your rhetorical constructs, and are doing it deliberately and intentionally now (if not before).

So, if you would like to continue the direct conversation I was trying to have with you (just because I disagree with you does not mean I was talking past you, or trying to misdirect the debate), fine, otherwise your smug air of superiority over debate ethics is compete hogwash.

actually do think newbies should think twice before posting an unpopular opinion. Not that they shouldn't do it, but they should think twice.

I agree. I thought lots about this. More than lots. Months.

I only presume to post it b/c I feel that long-termers who wish similar ideas expressed don't feel the ability to write it. Unburdened by the politics or worries over 'feather-ruffling' that others might have, I am in the unique position to be able to offer my observations without really being a part of previous kerfuffles - and as such, can take most posts at their face value.

I'd like to make it clear, however, that what I wrote, though informed by discussions with long-termers, is just a collection of my own observations in recent months. And again - if you don't like it, or think it valueless, than feel free to ignore.

I explicitly stated the tone I intend my post(s) to have at the outset, and I will keep everyone updated when I want that to change.

If your case is to get everyone to be nicer to other members of the board?

This is not helping it. IJS.

Please don't negate the efforts of those of us who are attempting to look at the merits of your posts by getting snotty. And yes, tone comes from both ends -- writer and reader. Dana isn't over-sensitive, and neither am I.

> I also think a Newbie might come away with the assumption that there are some posters who are annoyed at and/or are holding grudges at other posters.

Yup

And again - if you don't like it, or think it valueless, than feel free to ignore.

Actually, I don't want to ignore it. I want to engage it, because I think your position is wrong. That is how debate and discussion happens, and does not mean that an opposing view point is trying to change the subject.