Sean, I'm not sure if you're (just) frustrated because you want the thread currently under discussion, or if you honestly believe (any) thread creation should be little more than a notice in Press and a new header on the board.

If the first, then we have to discuss it. The idea has to prove merit to be considered, and to do that it has to be examined by all who perceive interest in its creation, or in the denial of its creation. The idea has to be defended in what must be a hostile atmosphere, interest and support proven, and that interest and support must be further shown by voting.

If the second, then I have to ask do you really believe that the board as it is currently maintained can support hundreds of threads, each of narrow focus and interest, and each with a select membership that posts only in that thread, and possibly a few others? B.org could have a "membership" of tens of thousands of people, most of whom "know" each other only through their narrow interests. Posters who come and go and never have an inkling who else posts in whatever other threads. What relation does a board like that have with what we have now?

I know you get upset with me presenting this as either/or, but that's exactly how I see it. If we make it easy to create new threads, then more people than just gamers are going to want to create new threads. What criteria do we have then, for thread creation? How do you see the process functioning, and how is it better than the creaky, frustrating and roadblocky way it functions now? What would your compromise look like? Because I honestly can't conceive of anything in the middle. If you can, I'd like to share it, please.

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Clearly, in most cases, the majority of people who vote don't think adding a given new thread is unreasonable. I think it then follows that almost no one thinks bringing up the idea of a new thread is unreasonable. There are people who think adding whatever new thread is a bad idea, but that is not the same thing.

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For you the splintering ruins community. For me the lack of being able to choose particular areas to go and talk easily depending on my available time and current obession ruins community. Our two ideals for community seem to be in direct opposition to each other.

(I am not Jessica and make no claim, but I want to answer this for myself.)

This? Is exactly why we have a process. We're never going to have a board that works perfectly for every member in every situation. We try for the best board for the most people. We propose, we discuss, we vote, we live with the results. This is the whole point, to me.

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I know it is. I participate in the votes for this reason. I am just stating that for me the direction things have gone have made the board less and less my beautiful cake. I know it is not the case for everyone or even for anyone other than me. We will vote. I will go with the vote. Doesn't make me less sad for the fact that things don't always go the way I'd like them to but I'm also not climing any clock towers with bolt action rifles.

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I know it is. I participate in the votes for this reason. I am just stating that for me the direction things have gone have made the board less and less my beautiful cake. I know it is not the case for everyone or even for anyone other than me. We will vote. I will go with the vote. Doesn't make me less sad for the fact that things don't always go the way I'd like them to but I'm also not climing any clock towers with bolt action rifles.

I didn't know cruise ships even had clock towers.

I'm voting yes for the gaming thread, big surprise there. I would however like to note my support for discussing it. I think it's got a good shot at taking off, and I think it'll benefit the community here more than it hurts, but I also think both the thread scepticism and the fragmentation concerns are reasonable positions. If the thread gets voted down, that's fine.

A few other random thoughts: I don't think thread fragmentation has damaged the community. I think that happened when Buffy and Angel went off the air. While they were still showing, defining this board's raison d'etre was comparatively easy. Now it's not. All things considered, we've done remarkably well at keeping a community together in dificult circumstances.

This leads me to why I like having many thread options here. People need a reason to stick around, and different people will have different reasons. Additional threads create additional ways for people to interact with the boards, and thus gives more people a reason to stick around. This isn't an argument against the current process. the fact that we vote in most threads but reject a few tells me that we get the balance about right.

Finally, the idea that having more threads creates subcmmunities that bleed people off from the main community: as mentioned, I think it's a coherent argument. Could happen. I don't think it has, does, or will do, but others will look at stuff and reasonably conclude otherwise. I do, however, get just a little nervous at the idea that preserving this community entails denying some of its users options they reasonably want. I'd rather believe this community is vibrant enough to survive and attract participation from people within any subcommunities on its own merits. Yes, harder without the shared experience of Buffy and Angel, but I guess I'd rather look at ways to increase traffic flow into the centre (so to speak) than to try to prevent movement out. If that makes any sense.

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In general, that has already happened, and I don't think it is the fault of new threads.

I agree, it has, and I don't want it to get any worse. But if the existence of splinter communities within Buffistas isn't caused by the threads where those communities spring up, then what is it?

Mostly though, I'm very very tired of talking about it. I feel like every time we open Lightbulbs it's just another exercise in endurance - whoever has the stamina to still give a fuck after 4 days wins. And I have no more stomach for this fight, so I'm going to bed.

Here's the truth - I hope nobody ever proposes another thread again, because it will mean that this is the last time this conversation ever has to happen.

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I agree, it has, and I don't want it to get any worse. But if the existence of splinter communities within Buffistas isn't caused by the threads where those communities spring up, then what is it?

I think that the existence of splinter threads is symptom rather than cause. The way you see it is a valid reading, but it's not so much my reading. My opinion is that people will stay in the centre if the centre has sufficient pull to attract them. (My opinion is also that I'd like to see the centre thrive, and I'd like to see people in the subcommunities want to participate there, and maybe it's worth looking at how to improve its appeal sometime.)

Mostly though, I'm very very tired of talking about it. I feel like every time we open Lightbulbs it's just another exercise in endurance - whoever has the stamina to still give a fuck after 4 days wins. And I have no more stomach for this fight, so I'm going to bed.

Yeah. I rarely participate in new thread debates, but it's easy to see the stress it causes people of all opinions. I have no solutions to that, unfortunately.

On a more positive note, I don't think that these debates have as much influence as all that, i.e. I don't think it goes to the side with the most endurance. The debate does bring out things to consider, but ultimately I think most people make up their own minds, and certainly I don't expect many people will change their minds on the pro-lif/anti-lif spectrum because of it. (Any correlation between the voting results and the direction of the voting discussion at the end, IMO, is more likely to stem from both of them being an expression of one kind or another of the board's opinion than from one heavily influencing the other.)

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On a more positive note, I don't think that these debates have as much influence as all that, i.e. I don't think it goes to the side with the most endurance.

I'd be curious to know how many people vote without ever reading Lightbulbs. It wouldn't surprise me if there were quite a few.

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I'd be curious to know how many people vote without ever reading Lightbulbs. It wouldn't surprise me if there were quite a few.

I predict renewed interest in this thread when I follow up the current Bitches discussion with a "Should Kristin be less comfortable about nudity?" vote.

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