Nutty, you totally should write that book because the combination of your explanation and Plei's comments about gendering and pan-fannishness really helped my understanding of the discussion. In my experience, media fandom was the name for the ghetto that the bookish sf con organizers wanted to pen the Star Trek fans in (and keep them away from programming) in 1986. That is, it was "no tee-vee in with the books." But that was 20 years ago, and the goal posts have shifted. I mean, I've always at least partially gotten (current) mediafannishness (as a Buffy fan), but the nickel has clunked for me now.

We don't have to have anyone go off and start their own con. Our logistics are such that we can all be under the same roof. I mean, I'm pretty much a topic person when it comes to show discussion, but we have a lot of overlap and I have a lot of affection and admiration for the spicy brains of my fellow buffistas. I'm not going to get much out of an extended discussion of Padalecki's hair, but I get why folks would want one. I can gleefully coexist and comingle with flailing, but I don't have much to contribute, and I have to breathe topic regularly or I pass out. I'm sorry folks I adore are feeling squee-bashed. I come here (and other places) for the topicky and the specific-ness, but I've always gotten that not everyone did, or does.

Or, as I've mulled this over, what Hec said.

People keep implying that the proposal came from non-SPN fans.

Well, aside from the proposal there seems to have been tensions about the thread use and the tensions were between SPN watchers and people who felt like it took up most of the board.

In any event, aside from who proposed the thread or seconded it, it did not come from an impulse to have a private clubhouse for SPN. It came as a response to objections about how much space SPN took up in BS. And the way that it happened is what felt like a rejection. A rejection that felt personal sort of along the lines of "B.org doesn't like you anymore."

Which if you felt like B.org was your tribe would really suck.

Also, it seems clear to me that this is a discussion we needed to have, whether about SPN or another show.

True facts, this.

I have to breathe topic regularly or I pass out.

Oh my, JohnSweden, may I please tag? I'm in love with this sentence.

Although Frank first broached the topic, the proposal was made quickly (less than 30 minutes and four Boxed Set posts later) by SPN fan AmyLiz, and then seconded by SPN fans Cindy, askye, Anne W., and JenP.

This is entirely true. But I've said I didn't quite understand the way others might feel about creating a thread, and I *wasn't* doing it out of, "Hey, I want our own clubhouse because that would be COOL!"

I routinely second proposals, whether or not I plan to vote in favor them, just because I figure issues, once raised, should be discussed and settled. I also routinely second proposals made by my friends.

I hope the SPN fans who are hurt know I didn't second it to boot you (us) out. I seconded it, so the discussion could start, and because my friend Amy was brave enough to make the proposal (for whatever reasons).

Which I hadn't really understood until we got this far into the discussion.

Yeah, this.

People keep implying that the proposal came from non-SPN fans. Just to be clear: Although Frank first broached the topic, the proposal was made quickly (less than 30 minutes and four Boxed Set posts later) by SPN fan AmyLiz, and then seconded by SPN fans Cindy, askye, Anne W., and JenP.

It's true, she did. But only after she said this:

I feel sort of guilty about it, Frank, mostly because I don't participate in any other discussion in here. I'll propose it if you want, because we're losing the Veronica Mars thread once the S3 DVDs are released.

(emphasis mine)

AmyLiz "Boxed Set, Vol. IV: It's always suicide-mission this, save-the-planet that." Jul 14, 2007 5:23:10 pm PDT

I've been saying since the beginning that I don't find guilt a good basis for thread creation.

Y'know, I did try to caveat my point with

I'm not trying to dismiss the fact that non-fans played a role in the proposal, but it's not as much as some people are making it out to be.

And Hec and JS have me wanting to nod my head, too. Though I want to clarify this

And the way that it happened is what felt like a rejection. A rejection that felt personal sort of along the lines of "B.org doesn't like you anymore."

Because while there's kind of a little of this, it's also wrapped in so very much with the part where at least I am feeling like I unintentionally did a multipart guac slamdance on people's toes, despite trying to do more of a graceful sort of salsa number or something around them.

I'll propose it if you want

Yes, she said that. But she then proposed it without waiting for an answer, so I think my point (and caveat) stands.

I feel sort of guilty about it, Frank, mostly because I don't participate in any other discussion in here. I'll propose it if you want, because we're losing the Veronica Mars thread once the S3 DVDs are released.

I think I missed this, or skimmed it in my shock over how fast things had advanced, because if I'd seen this at the time I would have tried to put the kibbosh on the proposal then and there. Among other reasons because I totally agree with Lee's statement:

I've been saying since the beginning that I don't find guilt a good basis for thread creation.

I phrased it badly (and as I try to recall my exact mindset, probably a moment of exasperation), but I seriously just wanted to find out if there was support for an SPN thread for those discussing SPN and/or if there was a reason why BS was the place they wanted to be. I found out, but not the way I ever would have guessed or wanted.

I should add that I missed "I'll propose it if you want" when I checked back into the board and realized that the proposal had already been made. Definitely my fault because I had to go out after dropping what turned out to be a bombshell - I should have posted something about not being around for the next several hours (or quite honestly, shouldn't have posted that then when I knew I couldn't be around if there was reaction).