Well, I'm finally understanding the hurt feelings more and what happened.

It does seem clear that one of the bigger issues is that the thread proposal didn't come from people who wanted the thread, but people who wanted to off-load Supernatural. But, as discussed, the very fact of one show dominating a bucket thread creates its own kind of pressure that would have to be addressed anyway.

But it would have been better if the discussion had simply started from a different angle. Same discussion maybe, but with a lot less sting.

I don't know how to address the other thing I'm noticing without invoking the apparently confusing "Media Fandom" phrase. But the people who are feeling unhappily booted from Box Set have been discussing Supernatural as they do elsewhere in the larger fandom realms, but with local Buffistas. So when Squee and W&P receive objection it feels more like a repudiation of their whole way of interacting with shows (aka, media).

It's not just a volume issue, but something that feels more personal.

Which I hadn't really understood until we got this far into the discussion.

It does seem clear that one of the bigger issues is that the thread proposal didn't come from people who wanted the thread, but people who wanted to off-load Supernatural.

People keep implying that the proposal came from non-SPN fans. Just to be clear: Although Frank first broached the topic, the proposal was made quickly (less than 30 minutes and four Boxed Set posts later) by SPN fan AmyLiz, and then seconded by SPN fans Cindy, askye, Anne W., and JenP.

I'm not trying to dismiss the fact that non-fans played a role in the proposal, but it's not as much as some people are making it out to be.

Although Frank first broached the topic, the proposal was made quickly (less than 30 minutes and four Boxed Set posts later) by SPN fan AmyLiz, and then seconded by SPN fans Cindy, askye, Anne W., and JenP.

This is entirely true. But I've said I didn't quite understand the way others might feel about creating a thread, and I *wasn't* doing it out of, "Hey, I want our own clubhouse because that would be COOL!"

Also, it seems clear to me that this is a discussion we needed to have, whether about SPN or another show.

Nutty, you totally should write that book because the combination of your explanation and Plei's comments about gendering and pan-fannishness really helped my understanding of the discussion. In my experience, media fandom was the name for the ghetto that the bookish sf con organizers wanted to pen the Star Trek fans in (and keep them away from programming) in 1986. That is, it was "no tee-vee in with the books." But that was 20 years ago, and the goal posts have shifted. I mean, I've always at least partially gotten (current) mediafannishness (as a Buffy fan), but the nickel has clunked for me now.

We don't have to have anyone go off and start their own con. Our logistics are such that we can all be under the same roof. I mean, I'm pretty much a topic person when it comes to show discussion, but we have a lot of overlap and I have a lot of affection and admiration for the spicy brains of my fellow buffistas. I'm not going to get much out of an extended discussion of Padalecki's hair, but I get why folks would want one. I can gleefully coexist and comingle with flailing, but I don't have much to contribute, and I have to breathe topic regularly or I pass out. I'm sorry folks I adore are feeling squee-bashed. I come here (and other places) for the topicky and the specific-ness, but I've always gotten that not everyone did, or does.

Or, as I've mulled this over, what Hec said.

People keep implying that the proposal came from non-SPN fans.

Well, aside from the proposal there seems to have been tensions about the thread use and the tensions were between SPN watchers and people who felt like it took up most of the board.

In any event, aside from who proposed the thread or seconded it, it did not come from an impulse to have a private clubhouse for SPN. It came as a response to objections about how much space SPN took up in BS. And the way that it happened is what felt like a rejection. A rejection that felt personal sort of along the lines of "B.org doesn't like you anymore."

Which if you felt like B.org was your tribe would really suck.

Also, it seems clear to me that this is a discussion we needed to have, whether about SPN or another show.

True facts, this.

I have to breathe topic regularly or I pass out.

Oh my, JohnSweden, may I please tag? I'm in love with this sentence.

Although Frank first broached the topic, the proposal was made quickly (less than 30 minutes and four Boxed Set posts later) by SPN fan AmyLiz, and then seconded by SPN fans Cindy, askye, Anne W., and JenP.

This is entirely true. But I've said I didn't quite understand the way others might feel about creating a thread, and I *wasn't* doing it out of, "Hey, I want our own clubhouse because that would be COOL!"

I routinely second proposals, whether or not I plan to vote in favor them, just because I figure issues, once raised, should be discussed and settled. I also routinely second proposals made by my friends.

I hope the SPN fans who are hurt know I didn't second it to boot you (us) out. I seconded it, so the discussion could start, and because my friend Amy was brave enough to make the proposal (for whatever reasons).

Which I hadn't really understood until we got this far into the discussion.

Yeah, this.

People keep implying that the proposal came from non-SPN fans. Just to be clear: Although Frank first broached the topic, the proposal was made quickly (less than 30 minutes and four Boxed Set posts later) by SPN fan AmyLiz, and then seconded by SPN fans Cindy, askye, Anne W., and JenP.

It's true, she did. But only after she said this:

I feel sort of guilty about it, Frank, mostly because I don't participate in any other discussion in here. I'll propose it if you want, because we're losing the Veronica Mars thread once the S3 DVDs are released.

(emphasis mine)

AmyLiz "Boxed Set, Vol. IV: It's always suicide-mission this, save-the-planet that." Jul 14, 2007 5:23:10 pm PDT

I've been saying since the beginning that I don't find guilt a good basis for thread creation.

Y'know, I did try to caveat my point with

I'm not trying to dismiss the fact that non-fans played a role in the proposal, but it's not as much as some people are making it out to be.