oh Dana, fight with her, it's fun.

and letting democracy have its sway are kind of my take on it.

The problem with democracy is an inexplicable unwillingness to let me be a dictator. Also Burrell's law, which at first I didn't like but now I see the wisdom of-- if something is put to a vote, it's likely to pass. Most people without a horse in the race, IMO, will just let buffistazens have what they want, without considering whether it sets a good precedent for the future.

hayden and ita and betsy and others all make good points about taxing resources. But would y'all vote for this thread if it included a provision which stated, unequivocally, that if resources are being taxed (as determined exclusively by ita or whoever is monitoring these things) Book Club thread is the first one on the chopping block?

Because if that's the biggest opposition to this thread, I'll include that clause in a heartbeat. Seriously. I don't want this thread to be controversial solely on resource concerns.

Discussions of other books during a book club discussion is extremely distracting and counterproductive.

As I said before, I feel that's a failure on the part of the posters involved. If a discussion can't be maintained because of something shiny...

Let me repost Connie's analogy: Literary is a big room with an ongoing party/argument/bull session in it. In-depth discussions occasionally break out, and they're quite fun, but it's difficult to concentrate because of all the other things going on. Also, if you leave all your notes and materials on the table in the corner, sometimes they get messed up by the other folks in the room--through no fault of their own, of course. Table gets bumped, a stray breeze catches stuff, a drink gets put down on that carefully crafted comparison of James Joyce and Erica Jong and nobody else can find it.

And in the real world, if you were trying to have a real live book club in a library you'd find a quiet corner. A quiet corner.

I don't feel that asking the proposer to clarify how this new thread is going to work is an unreasonable request. For me, a lot of threads, like the general TV one, sound good in practice. Then we start talking about how it would actually work and I realize it would be, for me, a flipping nightmare and I'd never use it.

Kristen, see my post here.

I'm speaking up because I, like Consuela and some others, get the distinct impression Literary is being portrayed as something that needs to be left behind for substantive discussion to take place -- and I take issue with that. We've had some regular Lit posters say they *don't* feel comfortable with in-depth analysis, which I entirely support their right to say -- but I'll also say the same thing I say in show threads, which is that I still feel entitled to engage in it.

Not to pick on you Micole, but this reason to "speak up" is driving me nuts, and you're not the only one doing it. Book Club is not about Literary, it's not a comment on the level of subsantsiveness of discussion in Literary, and it will have no effect on that level if it's created. So why do people feel that they need to oppose the Book Club thread because it's a slap at Literary? I love Literary. And I want my Book Club.

I think I have read just about every single post on this topic and the kerfuffle in Literary. It seems to me that the primary objection to a special book club thread (and I could be misperceiving) is that we have the literary thread, which sh/would be used for such discussion. There are feelings that a book club in Literary c/would be disruptive to that thread.

My understanding of voting procedures is that if this proposal goes to a vote and fails, it cannot be reproposed for another six months.

My feeling is that if the proposal fails, a book club will be attempted in Literary. If the project becomes unwieldly in that thread as speculated, the book club thread cannot be reproposed for another six months, which may or may not be a good thing. (If there is still interest after six months, it would be a viable thread. If there isn't interest in six months, then it's a good thing the thread was never created.)

I have not yet seen the following suggestion, which is only a suggestion and not a recommendation:

Would it be practical to table this proposal and go ahead and start a book club in Literary, as an experiment for a month or two? If the project goes as speculated, then the Book Club thread could be reproposed without having to wait for the six months and it might still have interest.

And in the real world, if you were trying to have a real live book club in a library you'd find a quiet corner. A quiet corner.

That's the nice thing about this board. It's not the real world. Nobody's actually deafened by the music or other conversations.

I'm not actually convinced a book club will be successful, but that's more about the commitment required for people to participate. And if it does work, and/or encourage more in-depth discussion of both assigned and nonassigned books in Literary, then I think that's a success.

I think this is a legitimate issue, but I'm still interested in trying. I think it can work, in part because we have such a large pool of readers that we'd only need to get 10 or so on board for any particular text to generate a good discussion. (Note: I'm not saying only 10 people will use the thread. But that would be something like a functional minimum on whatever we had on hand.) Also, I think if somebody is willing to moderate/lead the group that will also generate discussion. Also, if we include things like poetry and plays, then the time commitment isn't as great as a 700 page novel.

I'm speaking up because I, like Consuela and some others, get the distinct impression Literary is being portrayed as something that needs to be left behind for substantive discussion to take place -- and I take issue with that. We've had some regular Lit posters say they *don't* feel comfortable with in-depth analysis, which I entirely support their right to say -- but I'll also say the same thing I say in show threads, which is that I still feel entitled to engage in it.

Since I was probably the most egregious in my comments, I'd like to apologize. I don't feel like Literary as it currently exists needs to be left behind. I've enjoyed the thread and the people who posted there - and I'll specifically note that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Micole and Consuela. Well-read, thoughtful, measured in their comments, always respectful.

Certainly you have to choose your battles, know when and why you should take a stand. This really wasn't one of those burning issues - something got up my nose and I addressed it bluntly. I wasn't even a little bit angry about it - it was just something that had been bugging me for a long time and it was galling.

But I'm not sorry I started the discussion or what I said. I think it produced a very useful discussion, even though there was definitely some bruising.

Being inoffensive was never one of my life goals. However, I do not believe I should purposefully set out to offend nor insult people either. Aside from my personal scruples, it's not good for the board. I've tried to address people directly in the boards where I had specific issues. If anybody feels generally and broadly tarred by my characterizations I apologize.

I'll reiterate what I noted during that discussion - I have tremendous respect for the opinions of the people in Literary. I know Betsy and her taste well enough that if she endorses Georgette Heyer, then that's gold to me. Even if I'm unlikely to read a regency era romance.

There is not one person in Literary that I think of as incapable of deep, thoughtful, interesting, provocative analytical discussion. But there were enough people who were loudly, consistently, reflexively against it that it did dissuade that kind of talk.

As for the current issue under discussion, I was persuaded by Consuela (and others) point that the nature of Literary as it had existed (many books, many posters, little focus) was also a significant factor in quelling susustained discussion on a particular topic. That's why I think a book club thread is a good idea.

But I also think there is no chance a book club would work within Literary. It's already going to be hard to get it up and running - it needs the sort of slight, guiding pressure that having its own thread will generate to maintain momentum and traction.

It seems to me that the primary objection to a special book club thread (and I could be misperceiving) is that we have the literary thread, which sh/would be used for such discussion.

And the taxing of resources. Those seem to be the two big objections.

There are feelings that a book club in Literary c/would be disruptive to that thread.

Kim, this is not my primary objection to the Literary suggestion, and I think a lot of people are missing this point. I feel that a book club in Literary would be disruptive to the book club. Whether it will be disruptive to Literary is a different thing.

ETA: and this from Hec's post above - But I also think there is no chance a book club would work within Literary. It's already going to be hard to get it up and running - it needs the sort of slight, guiding pressure that having its own thread will generate to maintain momentum and traction.

Would it be practical to table this proposal and go ahead and start a book club in Literary, as an experiment for a month or two?

For the foregoing reasons, I can't table the proposal.

I'm actually in favor of the book club thread, Wolfram. Just trying to spell out the aspect of the objection that I find most compelling.

And, Calli -- I emailed you.

Wolfram, I never said that was your primary objection, but that it was my understanding of the majority of dissenters here. I may well have misunderstood. I am always willing to admit when I am wrong. It seems to me that the issue of taxing the resources, while brought up early on, was not a focal point of the discussion until just recently, and I feel it is a valid concern.

(FWIW, I like the idea of a Book Club thread, though I would probably just lurk there, too.)

If you don't feel it's practical to table the proposal then you shouldn't. It's your proposal. I only wanted to offer a suggestion I hadn't seen.

(And I think this is coming across as touchy and defensive, and I don't mean for it to. I just want to be clear and concise.)

(Edited, because I hate that it sounds touchy and defensive and I can't seem to make it sound less so.)

Since I was probably the most egregious in my comments, I'd like to apologize.

It's not necessary, but I appreciate the monkey-grooming. ;)

I'm sorry to have restarted the argument, or seemed like I was doing that; let me try to boil this down to what's applicable to the current argument. Part of the discussion seems to be constructed as "Literary serves a purpose the Book Club would disrupt," and I wanted to put in my two cents as a Literary participant who doesn't think the Book Club would be disruptive, or antithetical to the purposes of the thread.

A separate issue is, I think, the idea that "Literary would disrupt the proposed Book Club," which I think is possible but not as certain as many posters do.