And yeah, we've gotten an answer that it's not so, but given timing or whatever, this DOES feel like an outgrowth of the argument that happened last week.

Only in the sense that it was brought up as a side item.

Brenda said, "brenda: Am I wrong in thinking there was a certain amount of discussion of Joyce recently? There was a flurry of HP talk recently, too, though not having read the books I pretty much skipped that one. But for outside reasons, these were novels that were occupying the thoughts of a large enough group of people here that a conversation could be sustained. Maybe we need to find a way to encourage that with other works of significance, however you define that category.

But knowing what I know about the people here, their interests, abilities, and personalities, I can't help but think that there's something structurally lacking more than intellectually."

And I pointed out that a book club might help. It was about the structure of the thread itself, not the books that people were talking about.

Also - I hate to bring up the kerfuffle, but... several people in the current Literary thread have indicated that they're extremely uncomfortable with the kind of discussion Heather is talking about, due to a variety of factors: everything from fear of and discomfort with academic jargon (which I, pro-book club talky meat though I am, also dread - I'd far rather keep it smart but conversational), to an express desire to continue using the thread as a recs-only source, to a strong fear that deep analysis will kill their gut-level heart-and-soul love.

Jacqueline, that last one is me, and probably just me.

But it isn't an issue. I've unsubbed, I'm not going near Literary again, and that last reason, at least, can come off the table. It's a non-factor, unless someone else out there processes it the way I do, and dislikes the decon the way I do. And for some reason, I doubt that.

So, carry on, without that last factor. It's irrelevant.

It's a non-factor, unless someone else out there processes it the way I do, and dislikes the decon the way I do. And for some reason, I doubt that.

(I'm like that too. Wanna go have a soda with me??)

I'm pretty anti-poliferation. I post about it, inspite of getting shat on for it on a regular basis and I'm irked that I feel compelled to defend myself.

Huh. This was enlightening to me, at least as far as how heavily perception influences things.

I'm stunned, seriously bowled over, that Kat feels shat on for her anti-proliferation stance. A feeling that seems to indicate a feeling of being in the minority, or at least of feeling beaten up all the time.

This seems so strange to me, as someone who was against some of the thread consolidation we did and who is not anti-proliferation. To be perfectly honest, I've always felt that creating any thread is an uphill battle, only because of the anti-proliferation camp, who has (to me) always felt like the most powerful lobby on the board.

I guess power, as well as being crapped on, is somewhat in the eye of the beholder as well.

Which is not meant to imply you're not beaten up for your opinion Kat, just that I have perhaps overestimated just how much pull the anti-proliferation stance has.

And yet, still.... It's the one argument guaranteed to come up in pretty much every thread proposal.

the most powerful lobby on the board

Don't you measure that by results? Results like, say, new threads?

Don't you measure that by results? Results like, say, new threads?

I was measuring by, among other things, vocality and consistency, and the general impression that more threads have been voted down than approved. Are those numbers wrong?

Not to mention that I count the massive thread consolidation as a huge victory for the anti-proliferation camp.

So, carry on, without that last factor. It's irrelevant.

I'd need to go back and recheck, but I'm fairly sure that though you were the most articulate in laying out your position, you weren't the only one who felt that way. And if you're no longer subscribing to Literary, then it is relevant, because you and the others were there first, were participating and talking and swapping recs and posting links to articles and all the rest.

I wasn't getting what I wanted out of it, so I didn't participate -- well, boo hoo on me. That doesn't give me the right to repurpose the thread and make it a place where you don't go. If anything, it makes me want a separate thread even more; freewheeling, non-twisty and gnarled discussion and recommendation-swapping are a totally valid thread purpose, and it makes me profoundly uncomfortable to think that anyone with a longer and deeper history with the thread isn't there anymore.

I apologize like mad if any of that, or anything else I've said, sounds patronizing. I don't value the bones-and-marrow discussion of one or two pieces over the more wide-ranging general book-riffing, but the overall vibe I got from the kerfuffle was that although there was interest in both kinds of discussion, a lot of the long-term posters did not feel at ease with both kinds. And, given that, I personally would feel more comfortable, less like an intruder or interloper or intellectual bully, having a separate thread for each kind.

Hopefully with plenty of crossover between the two, but space for each.

I'm probably still stating it very badly indeed. More apologies.

I'm thinking that some of the arguments that were anti-general tv thread are applicable to using the literary thread for a book club thread too. I so don't want to hunt them down.

What JZ said.

And if you're no longer subscribing to Literary, then it is relevant, because you and the others were there first, were participating and talking and swapping recs and posting links to articles and all the rest.

Oh lord, I was not planning on participating in any of this.

Sweets, just for reassurance, and speaking only for myself: this really, really is not a problem. OK? Truly. If a book club thread would allow people to go on about whether or not T.H. White really meant to use an allegory of Nazi Germany in The Once and Future King, or whatever said book happens to be, I'll vote for the thread in a heartbeat. I won't go within a country mile of it, but I'll do my best to make sure you guys get to have it.

And, regardless of outcome of this particular discussion or vote, I'm out of Literary. Truly. Not speaking for Aimee, or anyone else who may have my feelings about crit; just speaking for me.

I don't want to be there again, period. So it doesn't arise.