I think I'm going to vote no. Not because of the "tainting the board" theory, because I tend to agree with Miracleman on that. But the argument that we started as and should remain a pop culture/personal board makes sense to me right now. We can't be all things to all posters without losing a good deal of our community identity, and the community is a big part of what makes this board great.

Well, again, I can only say what I said before. Politics is different than books or movies or How I spent my day. It's an intellectual exercise that has a tangible--sometimes freeing and sometimes horrific, but real, physical, concrete--effect on us. It runs hotter, cuts closer, weighs more.

And my experience from TT is that it is inherently more damaging. Even if it shouldn't be, it somehow always works out that it is. The Politics threads on TT were a bitter, savage swamp, and the TT folks were for the most part as thoughtful and courteous and patient as the Buffistas. But that place was damaged.

And at the same time you could go to other threads in TT and find people in more natterly threads who also had diametrically opposed viewpoints getting along and really enjoying each other's company, because the weight of the other subjects under discussion balanced things out and constantly forcibly reminded people of the things they valued about each other. (And, conversely, people who were seriously shell-shocked from nasty battles in Politics blowing up or disintegrating in other threads after some totally random remark.)

Maybe there isn't any reason why it should be more damaging, but I've never seen a board where it hasn't been.

I'd been mildly leaning toward a yes vote on the political thread when this discussion started, but a combo of the following factors have swayed me to say I will almost certainly vote against it:

• The fears JZ just eloquently voiced about spillover of people's reactions to one another. Let's face it, we've seen in this very discussion evidence of (mild) acrimonious tension and frustration between self-identified pro- and anti-thread proliferationists, a division that has no real world relevance outside of this board. Political divisions do have such relevance, and the potential for tension is a quantum leap greater.

• Technical issues, while seemingly minor, are still a consideration. I'd prefer to risk problems with the board's functioning (however slight that risk may be) only for those subjects that a large cross-section of the board feels the need to have in a dedicated environment.

• The troll issue. If the thread attracts even a single Mieskie, or prompts a single existing Buffista to follow in Caroma's footsteps, it won't be worth the cost in my opinion.

• While a number of people have indicated that they will probably read such a thread and post in it occasionally if it exists, the number of people who seem to strongly desire it to the point of being regular prolific posters seems small enough that the discussion can be taken to instant messaging or e-mail should Natter prove to be so inhospitable environment that the discussion is squashed there.

I'm leaning much more toward a No vote, now.

I agree with JZ's beautifully expressed posts about how politics do seem to breed acrimony in a way virtually no other topic does. After what we went through this week in B-cy, we've seen an example of how much agita can get stirred up between Buffistas -- and that wasn't a discussion about politics.

It's also a very good point, in my estimation, that we ought to continue to be a pop-culture board, and create threads accordingly.

I agree with JZ's beautifully expressed posts about how politics do seem to breed acrimony in a way virtually no other topic does. After what we went through this week in B-cy, we've seen an example of how much agita can get stirred up between Buffistas -- and that wasn't a discussion about politics.

This is true; though said discussion was a discussion about the behaviour of Buffistas. Which cuts even closer than politics, probably.

Though I agree with you. I mean, I basically held JZ's position before, but she expressed it very well.

Incidentally, when on TOL, and when I first arrived at TT, I posted most often on the Faith and Spirituality boards. First thing to say is that religion proved perfectly capable of generating heated argument; but it was always dwarfed by the Politics board. Second thing: on said TOL board, I became very close with a number of people of widely varying religious beliefs, but who all shared a single (political) belief, in the right to freedom of, to and from religion. And the board also hosted a few long-termers, and countless hit-and-runs, who felt otherwise. The people I became close to, that bond was forged, more or less, in the face of a common enemy (so to speak; it's a bit overdramatic, but captures the dynamic). I don't think that would've happened quite the same way, without something to unite against.

I doubt this has any direct application to the current discussion. I think it provides me with a personal reason why I prefer not having a Politics thread here. Adversarial internet debate now just bores me most of the time, and agitates me the rest of it. I like the current state of play here better.

Like I said, personal reasons. But I think my vote is now pretty soldily in the No camp.

I'm probably voting no at this point, for JZ's point, for the argument that we are pop-culture oriented (although I agree with Victor that pop-culture, like the personal, IS political), and for this:

I'm not going to vote for something I'd like mildly in a it-would-be-kinda-nice sort of way, when a substantial number is STRONGLY opposed.

Which sums up my deciding point of view quite nicely. This is why I could vote no, but I'd still post/read there.

I didn't think it was a time for a big vote/discussion when Aimee made her propasal, but I'm now very glad she did, because I have so enjoyed and been touched by the passion, wit, generosity, and intelligence shown in all the discussion about this subject

I'm with Robin. (So hard not to say, "What Scrappy said!" anymore...)

And for myself, I don't think I want a Politics thread, for many of the reasons so well-articulated upthread. Although I'm not much worried about trolls, actually. We've been troll-free, pretty much, and I wouldn't expect that to change.

However I fear that if we had a Politics thread, I would find myself compelled to read and post in it, occasionally, and it wouldn't be good for my blood pressure.

This is a pop-culture board more than it's anything else, since Buffy ended, and if we're going to expand I'd rather we expanded that way.

Anyway.

I've read JZ's posts and others who are adamantly against the creation of the thread and I've taken them very seriously. It's because of the strong negative reaction to the idea of the politics thread that I feel the most important thing for the thread, if created, is an easy and quick, discussion-free closing of the thread. Whether that's an up/down vote after three months, or two months, or less; or an agreement that if a single Warning is issued in that board it gets closed. I prefer the former.

I'm really on the fence about this thread now, but I'm not ready to vote against it. My biggest reason to vote for it is, like Victor said before, I don't think it's going to be as bad as people fear, and I tend to take a try-it-first approach since I haven't had the same negative vibe from politics discussion on this board that others have (with one notable exception.) My biggest reason to vote against it is, like Hec and others said, we're a pop-culture board, not a board for everything. And once it's created it may prove to be very addictive for some people and very difficult to uncreate.

I'm torn.

I'm torn.

So, what happens if the abstentions carry again? I don't recall.

Seriously, I'm more concerned that, whether the thread happens or not, people just remember to tread lightly with one another when talking about these kind of subjects.