Jessica, I never mentioned that I was offended that the discussion went on. I think the venting over the past 4 days or so, where people were called insane, were the things that probably upset people.

Me, not so upset. Because I'd have to think of myself as on a side of this.

What upset me most was the attempt by people who were against the proposal to shut down this entire conversation.

Talking now of how things appeared, not how they were:

It appeared as if they were willing to argue the proposal on its own merits until they realized they felt like they didn't have support. Then they brought up grandfathering and demanded a shutdown of the conversation. It came across as hostile as being discussed in abstentia might seem. I sincerely doubt either thing was intended that way, but it is how it seemed.

brenda - This isn't me picking. This is me being blunt, because when I try to walk on eggshells, I usually end up doing whatever it is I'm trying to avoid.

I'm curious as to your use of us - placing yourself with the unspoiled, because I know you've been reading and posting in spoilers. You asked me why I thought the NB career thing was a big deal, and I explained that I didn't, that it was just frustrating to be unable to discuss something openly that didn't happen on any of the shows. I know you were at least there then, if not now.

There was venting. I have put myself in the other place, and can imagine how I'd feel if I were spoiler-free. I wouldn't be having a party after reading some of the venting either. I can see and accept that it must have been hurtful to people who are reading it in retrospect. I do think it wasn't meant to be hurtful, but rather to blow off steam, so that there wouldn't be a kerfluffle. The best laid plans of mice and monkeys...

Anyhow, this isn't about that. That's all understandable. This is about the 'unified front' thing. Generally, someone would get tired of being unable to discuss Angel news openly, vent a little. Some of us would say, "The promos will air in August, it'll be all right." Others would say it was ridiculous or frustrating to wait. Some would think it was unfair. Some would say it was much ado about nothing. Someone would ponder making a request to go back to the way things were. We'd lose steam and fight about Spike in season 6 BtVS or apparently (I'm behind) cilantro.

Where is this unified front? I am starting to find this focus troubling, because I think that although there was admittedly venting, venting that was coarser than what people who don't hang in spoilers might expect, this was no kabal, and that's what it's starting to sound like. I don't think giving that impression is doing thing one towards helping us work towards any sort of resolution to our hurt and frustration.

being hit with a more-or-less unified front makes it easy to feel like Grenada in 1982.

Hmmm, unified front? Besides questioning the value of bringing in military metaphors (which, like political metaphors, tend to up the aggro rhetoric level) I don't see a unified front. A few spoiler hos have weighed in, but plenty of frustration has been voiced by folks who have never been in Spoilers at all and consequently can't really be considered part of some covert military-style campaign to Dismantle the Spoiler Policy. Those who call themselves spoiler hos and those who see themselves spoiler-phobes who are currently spoiled are being lumped together.

Jessica, I never mentioned that I was offended that the discussion went on.

Kat, I don't know why you think I'm singling you out. The word I used was "people." I read over 500 posts this morning. I honestly have no idea who posted what. The impression I got was that a fair number of people were offended that this had been discussed in Spoilers before it was brought before everyone.

I brought up the grandfathering. It came up late at night because we were discussing it late at night. It didn't come up before then because, frankly, I didn't even remember it until someone on the other side started ranting about "bullshit consensus."

The timing was unfortunate, I'm more than willing to grant that. I do think though, that if people actually looked at the conversation surrounding it, it's fairly apparent how it arose.

Speaking of perceptions, though, I find it disturbing that the question of whether the G clause might apply has fallen so strictly on "party lines." I find it upsetting that not one person in favor of the change is willing to entertain the possiblity that it might. Because try as I might, I can't see the answer as that obvious, that cut-and-dried. This leads me to the conclusion, which may be erroneous, that people (not all, but certainly some) are perfectly ok with arbitrarily setting aside decisions made by a voting majority when it might interfere with getting what they want. That's perception, not fact, and I'm trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But that's what it sometimes looks like from this side.

The impression I got was that a fair number of people were offended that this had been discussed in Spoilers before it was brought before everyone.

It was discussed in Spoilers?

Okay, maybe I've been skimming a little too much lately because all I remember were a few people mentioning how frustrating it was to not be able to talk about the BCS in the regular Angel thread. The propsal came as a surprise to me and I genuinely don't remember anyone talking about it in Spoilers.

But then the last few weeks have been hell for me so my visits have been sporadic at best. I'll have to go back and find this conversation.

Because try as I might, I can't see the answer as that obvious, that cut-and-dried.

I've already outlined my thoughts on the grandfathering issue. I don't see it as cut and dried. But I do see precedent having equal weight as a written FAQ.

Okay, maybe I've been skimming a little too much lately because all I remember were a few people mentioning how frustrating it was to not be able to talk about the BCS in the regular Angel thread.

Well yeah, that was pretty much it. And the white-fonting of the anti-spoilers sparked some venting, too. Other than that, there were maybe three or four posts after Plei said "I'm gonna propose this in B'cy, anyone got wording suggestions?" and then Jim went ahead and proposed it. It wasn't anything lengthy or organized.

I swear that most of the conversation in Spoilers over the last few days has been trash-talking the cilantro-lovers. (Or haters; I can't remember which.)

There's no MO in Spoilers to bash the unspoiled.

Kat, I don't know why you think I'm singling you out.

Perhaps because you quoted Plei's response to what I had said as bearing repeating?