Sean, my understanding is that Spoilers Lite was designed as a place where people could go to confirm or mention individual bits of spoilery information, without risk of getting spoiled for other things. It's a functional rather than a discussion thread, if that makes any sense.

Jess, you asked about people who identified as unspoiled posting spoilers in the discussion here. Two answers come to mind: First, it's difficult to get to the real nuances of the changes we're discussing without reverting to specifics. Or at any rate, it seems clear and less open to interpretation than resorting to hypotheticals. Second, while some seem to see the spoiled status of the spolier free as somehow making the arguments less meaningful, I see it the other way round. It's important for the discussion to realize that, as much as the spoiled feel stifled, the unspoiled also feel pressed - and the proof of this is in the demonstration that even those actively trying to remain unspoiled have been exposed to this level of information on this board.

And FTR, there've been more spoilers posted in here in the last 24 hours than there have in the Spoiler thread. ALL of these spoilers have been posted in whitefont by avowed Spoiler Virgins. What was the purpose of this?

I never claimed to be virginal this summer I don't think, Jess, though I did say that I preferred a hardcore spoiler policy (which is true; it doesn't cause me any particular pain to not discuss what I know, as it happens, though I sympathize with people for whom that is painful).

I posted the spoilers in question in whitefont because I thought it was important to clarify exactly what would be covered under the proposed policy; I wanted to understand exactly what we were talking about. If nothing else, that'll make it possible to give a nonspoilery-yet-meaningful warning to people if the proposal passes, so they know whether they should leave the topic or not. (i.e. "if you don't know three major casting spoilers, and don't want to know them, you need to unsubscribe to the Angel topic.) I didn't really see any way to confirm that beyond posting the examples, and quite frankly anyone who's avoided them so far can probably handle not highlighting a couple of messages with spoilerfont in them.

Actually Burrell, what I just realized is that my comproise is pretty much exactly the same thing as changing the rule, and then creating a Spoiler Virgin thread. I am not sure if it is helpful or not. It just seems that the way I put it, everyone has a place to go, at least.

By "spoiler virgins," I meant people who preferred to be completely unspoiled, not necessarily people who were.

I just find it a little ironic that the people who are most strongly arguing for these spoilers to remain under wraps are the ones posting them in a non-spoiler thread. Keep it up, and the proposal will be moot, you know?

But hey, whatever makes people happy. A day away from this thread was the best possible thing for my blood pressure, and I highly recommend it.

Sean, my understanding is that Spoilers Lite was designed as a place where people could go to confirm or mention individual bits of spoilery information, without risk of getting spoiled for other things. It's a functional rather than a discussion thread, if that makes any sense.

Pretty much, and at least one user of SL has mentioned liking to have a place where she can pick and choose what information to be spoiled on.

Look, I'm hardcore. I'm fine talking hardcore in Spoilers. My choice, and all. And you know what? I'm really not mad about this for myself, because I have plenty of places where I have better conversations about the shows, much as I love you all. HOWEVER, my biggest problem is the one Nutty mentioned, that being the pinched feeling experienced by the middle of the road Jane or Joe Average Buffista, who see the shift in enforcement as something that came out of left field. As I've said time and again, this is something that feels like a symptom of a larger problem, affecting the health of the board as a whole.

Adding my take:

1. I'm pretty anti-spoiler. But I read a ton of magazines and I've known about some of the cast changes that can't be named for ions. The fact that I know them from EW and from US and NYT is the cost of reading those magazines/newspapers to be informed. Do I wish I didn't know? I can't answer that until the season itself begins. I am, however, befuddled by the spoiler policy and, like victor, am surprised (not the correct verb but close enough for now) by the hullabaloo it caused here over the past few days.

2. I used to love spoilers and read in there back on WX, I believe. I enjoyed it then though even back then there was friction that the spoiled (including me!) felt towards those who were unspoiled.

2A. I miss discussing the speculation of next season. I would like to speculate, but don't want to be further spoiled so therefore I have avoided the spoiler threads entirely. Which does leave me with no place to actually discuss the show, since the discussion in the Angel thread about next season is not happening in a NAFDA thread.

3. If I were guessing, some of the current angst has less to do with the specifics of these bits of info released by the network, and more an upset of the perceived progression of becoming increasingly anti-spoilery.

An example of this is how we decided to whitefont cross show information this year to accomodate those who are tape delayed. I can't remember if it was voted or just decided after conversation, but I think that might be the beginning of people feeling like discussion is being squelched. Keep in mind, what we were asked to white font was stuff that was already BROADCAST and therefore we made a spoiler policy that was more staunch then the one we have in the FAQ. At that time no one mentioned grandfathering.

4. The vehemence on both sides of this argument has been strange and off putting, making me, in my contrarian style one to fight against something I really have no opinion on at all. Realizing that some quasi-backchannel was happening on board in the spoiler thread was upsetting. But also having someone call for grandfathering and the shutting down of this conversation, especially in the middle of the night felt equally upsetting.

5. I've got no solution and no compromise. I also realize that the onus for compromise is most often put on the spoiled which seems to cause a lot more upset.

6. Whatever decision is made I'll live with it. This is, after all, a discussion board. As Laura pointed out many posts up thread, we are a community which discusses with passion and obsessiveness. It seems such a community will also want to deconstruct information that is released through official channels, broadcast or not.

Realizing that some quasi-backchannel was happening on board in the spoiler thread was upsetting.

Kat, I'm glad you brought this up, because it *really* *REALLY* was no different in tone from the standard bitching I saw when I first entered the WX spoiler threads.

I enjoyed it then though even back then there was friction that the spoiled (including me!) felt towards those who were unspoiled.

As mentioned here.

Hell, it wasn't really different from someone in Bitches saying "okay, staying out of Natter, how the hell did things get so heated?", only in the rough vernacular we've been using increasingly in that thread. A lot of shit that looks fine in context has been taken at face value and out of context.

(All of this, mind, was in between a mock-heated discussion of how crazy and stupid cilantro lovers were, or basil lovers, or insert green herb of choice, and how those of us who love both are just freaks and should go away.)

Heated and passionate screams of "AAAAAAARGH!" have been going on there for as long as I've been in there. Heck, I was lured in in part by Amych making her "SPIKE'S STATUS IS NOT A SPOILER!" rant.

2A. I miss discussing the speculation of next season. I would like to speculate, but don't want to be further spoiled so therefore I have avoided the spoiler threads entirely. Which does leave me with no place to actually discuss the show, since the discussion in the Angel thread about next season is not happening in a NAFDA thread.

See, this is why I'm in favor of changing the official spoiler definition. Because, like Plei, I'll just stay in Spoilers if I have to. But other people, who don't want to know plot info, or other really detailed stuff, can't come to Spoilers to discuss the casting info they already know.

And that's a damn shame, seeing as how this is a *discussion* board.

Amych making her "SPIKE'S STATUS IS NOT A SPOILER!" rant.

Oh, the pre-S7 thing? Where we had to create a whole thread just for Spike? Other than Bitches? Yeah.

I'm sure it is no different to the participants in tone than what used to be there. Back when I still read, there used to be total zingers (some from me) because it is frustrating that the onus for keeping someone else pure is on the person already spoiled. That's the rub. You got the information and it feels like you have to either shut up or... well... nothing, that to keep PosterB pure, you have to be the one to do what you don't want to do while blissful PosterB doesn't even realize you can't discuss what you want to discuss.

And, from that side of the divide, there are times when it feels like the unspoiled do take a holier-than-thou stance. It's no wonder that the spoiled kvetch about the unspoiled!

That being said, if it is you they are talking about, then it is upsetting especially if you never realized that you were a source of anger. It makes matters worse because you feel like you don't have access to defend yourself once you realize it because you don't want to spoiled.

Oh, the pre-S7 thing? Where we had to create a whole thread just for Spike? Other than Bitches? Yeah.

A-yup. If you can find it (it might be here, at the beginning, if it's not at WX), it's a thing of beauty.

t /natter