Okay - It's old news to us. We would like to talk about it.

Please do not take this in anyway as a slam, because it's not. It's a valid question that I'd love to hear your answer on... What about those for whom it is news? Where do they go to talk about the show and still avoid the news?

So my question becomes: whose reality is more valid? Because that's pretty much what we're talking about now.

Everyone's reality is valid. I don't see how that's the question we're trying to answer.

Does your virginness trump my knowledge? Does my knowledge trump your virginness?

Respect for each other's views trumps everything. It always has.

How do we decide? The group that there's more of? The group that will get the most upset?

We've traditionally erred on the side of caution, because once you are spoiled you can't get unspoiled.

I realise you don't think these are spoilers. I'll tell you right now that I certainly do, and was most distressed to be spoiled.

When Cindy made her comment, was AtS even picked up? I can't remember if she made it pre-or-post.

(And around that time period, everyone, pretty much, was being floated as a possible. Other than the occasional signed on the dotted line contract, spoilers immediate post-season are just speculation from things the actors or writers have mentioned, taken out of context, and elaborated on. In other words, they are the monkeys with typewriters of Spoilers: they could in theory produce an accurate spoiler, but you're more likely to win the lottery.)

Ick. No one's. Whose will be accomodated -- that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

Right, exactly. That's all I was trying to say with that statement, ita.

I don't think either of our realities is more valid, but it feels like that's what this discussion has become about, and naturally, emotions are going to flare when that happens.

Everyone's reality is valid. I don't see how that's the question we're trying to answer.

I don't think that's the question we should be trying to answer, either. It's just that when I woke up this morning, it felt like the fairly rational discussion we were having yesterday has become a much more emotional one overnight.

I cross posted with you, Sean.

Elena, does that maybe help you understand why some of us are frustrated at the thought of having to go into Spoilers or Spoilers light to discuss something that, TO US (admittedly) seems like having to go into one of those threads to say that "A:tS is a show about a broody vampire."

I understand that people are frustrated. I understand that they are upset and angry. I even understand why people are frustrated.

I'm still waiting to hear why it's okay to potentially spoil a bunch of people who do consider the news a spoiler. And if it becomes clear that it really is common knowledge then I have absolutely no objections.

I have no idea how the casting news (which I'm perfectly happy to know) is anywhere on the level of "Angel is broody". That's got to be dramatic license, or summat. It's surety is completely underivable from existing canon.

Though it's not like we know Angel will continue to be broody or not, so there's that.

It's just that when I woke up this morning, it felt like the fairly rational discussion we were having yesterday has become a much more emotional one overnight.

I might take offense at being characterised as emotional rather than rational... But I won't.

I was upset at being spoiled. I'm advocating for those who are still unspoiled so they won't be upset. The people who are in the know are upset, frustrated, angry, etc. They are advocating that they be allowed to freely discuss this to ameliorate their frustration, etc. I just want to make sure it's not going to be at the expense of the unspoiled.

I guess I'm still stuck on the "this will not be a spoiler before the show airs" part of it.

I don't understand, at all, why they people who consider this sort of information a spoiler care when they get spoiled, because they're going to be spoiled in all NAFDA threads before 8 October 2003.

I've heard "well, we'll have more time in the show threads," which is all well and good, but keep in mind that Bitchy Fic and SB are both NAFDA threads, and I'm not going to not talk about it when it's not a spoiler. Chances are, neither will the rest of us, so you really won't be able to escape it before 8 October 2003.

Well, right now in the Angel thread, a couple of people are talking about The Big Spoiler without actually talking about it. Another person said she wants to discuss it because she knows about it, but is un-spoiled for plot points, etc., and since Spoilers is the only place to discuss it, she can't go there, and so she can't discuss it.

Just something to consider in this discussion.

Also:

"well, we'll have more time in the show threads,"

More time to do WHAT? What are people actually talking about in the show threads? At least if we could discuss casting, there'd be NEW discussion, instead of talking about Spider-Man (whom I love, but is still no on-topic for the show threads).

It's just that when I woke up this morning, it felt like the fairly rational discussion we were having yesterday has become a much more emotional one overnight.

Two things: I think the spoilerphobes caught up and started weighing in more, for whom this is more of an emotional issue and B) the discussion matured to the point that more people caught on that the proposal was more meta than this summer's Big Casting Spoiler, et al.

I also think that anti-spoilers are a relatively recent phenomenon, primarily caused by the demise of BtVS, with ripple effects. I'd hazard that this is why they seem so new and annoying to many on both sides of the discussion.

I might just be projecting, but I'd guess that some of the above is true for what you're seeing now, Sean.