Could someone explain to me why it's a problem to not openly discuss the issue(s) until they meet our previously agreed upon definition of non-spoiler?

Given we discussed SMG after The Gift, and ASH's status, I don't see this as meeting the previously agreed upon definition of non-spoiler or spoiler, or whatever. It's like someone took the definition and planted a really thick hedge around it.

X-post with juliana and Jess. Elena - I was just trying to answer you, not pig-pile on you.

I can tell you that I think exactly what Katie whitefonted.

But you drew that conclusion based on spoiler-free speculation. Nothing I can spoil you for would confirm or deny it.

And again, this information will be evident from the pre-season promos (which are already fair game),

Yes, and when the pre-season promos air then it will be fair game to talk about it.

I think this statement, however, is where some of the issues are coming from. When did this become "our previously agreed upon definition of non-spoiler" and who agreed to it.

It's been our definition of spoiler since we were on WX, agreed upon by the people who have been members of our community as we were building it.

And, yes, SMG not renewing would technically be a spoiler, but it was in magazines and newspapers that were not entertainment related. My local newspaper had a headline about it (and a full colour picture - oooh) and this is a case of something really being common knowledge.

I just don't know that this/these items are at that point. And if they are I will bow out and shut my mouth. But I would hate to see people spoiled - as I was spoiled - by those who think that 'everyone knows'.

But you drew that conclusion based on spoiler-free speculation.

No, Jess, I drew that conclusion after being spoiled for the news twice. The first time entirely explicitly, the second time by inference.

I am startled by the impression that "everyone knows", and even more startled that I was asked how I knew everyone didn't know.

However, I'm fully opined that "most everyone will know".

Now, I have absolutely no discussion to have about any of the casting news I know, and I suspect that many who are burning to talk about it -- have.

Jess [to pluck a name out of the hat], what do you gain by having the news no longer a spoiler? How does this balance with the virgins (who have stated what they lose by being exposed)?

Okay, backing up: I know we had a discussion where we decided on spoiler rules. I think it was post-Giles-leaving - either on WX or when we moved here. Does anyone remember when that was? Because if we can track down what we agreed to, maybe we can figure out why people have different memories of what "generally agreed-to" means.

It's entirely possible that we used the word "spoiler" and didn't realize that people would have different definitions of that, of course.

(And on that note, I'm off to an hour-and-a-half meeting which, frankly, I'd rather be discussing spoiler policy minutiae. See y'all later.)

AH being in American Wedding. SMG being in Scooby Doo.

I don't think a movie deal is comparable to someone signing on for another series. (Yes, the one recent incident was not a series, but a movie, and by itself would not be spoilery. The write-up unfortunately muddied the waters there by giving the wrong impression. But the intro to the description was.)

The other cast member project that was singled out also wouldn't have raised hackles if people hadn't already been careless about leaving broad hints in the non-Spoiler threads. In that context, I call it a spoiler.

The Buffy coming back thing - I think that fits the definition of something so extreme it couldn't be avoided (though I did know non-Buffista Buffy watchers who weren't sure). And yes, Joss was all over the media on that one - because the combination of that event and the move to another network meant that keeping quiet risked losing a good chunk of the audience. The Giles thing, I do wish hadn't been discussed, but I don't think it was a change of the magnitude of a major character joining or leaving the show with no in-show lead up.

But in both cases, just because we decided to discuss them doesn't mean they weren't actually spoilers by our own stated definition. People just didn't object because the one was so extreme and the other comparatively minor.

Jess [to pluck a name out of the hat], what do you gain by having the news no longer a spoiler?

Not having my blood boil every time things like Dan's post get deleted.

And I meant it when I said I can't tell, under current spoiler rules, when that kind of thing would cease to be spoilery. When the TV movie airs? When promos for it air? And if it's not on the WB, would the promos themselves be considered spoilers?

Elena, if your expectations for S5 turn out to be wrong, will you still consider yourself to have been spoiled?

It's entirely possible that we used the word "spoiler" and didn't realize that people would have different definitions of that, of course.

I think so. I think it's really likely.

I am startled by the impression that "everyone knows", and even more startled that I was asked how I knew everyone didn't know.

Has that come into this particular branch of this discussion, or is that from a while ago, back in the spoiler thread? I ask, because I'm pretty sure I vented that I bet everyone knew. If that's the comment to which you are referring, I was being venty and hyperbolic, not literal.

I can tell you that I think exactly what Katie whitefonted. And it's the most likely explanation.

I disagree. I don't think CC will be in 22 episodes, but I *do* think she'll show up so they can resolve her storyline, simply b/c the character has been too big a part of the series and the Buffyverse to leave her hanging indefinitely. It could be one episode where the character dies and CC appears only as a corpse, or twelve where she wakes up and snarks the hell out of everyone before passing her visions on to Wesley and taking off to NYC; I don't know which, and I'm not even sure if ME staff do right now. Either way, it has nothing to do with the actor's project that was mentioned here earlier, since that was probably filmed some time ago.