It's just... in addition to being bad writers, they don't seem to be smart enough to figure out plot implications and solutions to problems that are immediately obvious to the viewers. It's fine for least-common-denominator sitcom writers to be dumb if they can tell funny jokes, but it's an unforgivable failing in a genre show writer who has to deal with mysteries and plot twists. I get this mental image of Ross-Lemming waving a script around to get Singer's attention, and then him pinning it to the refrigerator with a magnet and patting her on the head.

Murderous, vengeful, ass-kicking Dean is so hot. I'm not even ashamed.

They've completely forgotten that wimpy non-warrior angel Metatron easily took Dean down despite his being fully under the influence of the Mark of Cain and having the first blade in hand, haven't they?

I think so, Matt. I was quite taken aback that Dean was kicking Castiel's ass. Was Cas deliberately letting him? Even to the point of disarming him? I thought at any moment Cas would just say "Enough!" and fly Dean into a wall.

Pedowitz at the upfronts pretty much confirmed that the network will bankroll the show as long as the Js keep taking the money. That SPN, along with Arrow, is finally hitting the 18-34 male demographic, the higher marketing bracket all tv execs covet. Fans aren't the audience, *marketers* are the audience--show is selling fans *to* the marketers. And because show is hitting the male demo, writing to the female fans wrt feminism, sexism, genderism, racism, or emotionally available and complex scripts, isn't a factor, not so long as simple and brutish are delivering the desired demo. Writers have been careful to step away from Destiel this season b/c it plays to female fans and makes the straight male majority uncomfortable.

I posted this elsewhere, but I kind of want to share the bitter:

What if the cast and staff of SPN really are done, they just don’t care anymore. But the network keeps stuffing twenties into their g-string and hollering, “More! More!” So the writing staff keeps turning out worse and worse scripts–they’ve gone beyond not caring to actively hoping to fail, and the cast keeps dancing, making kissy faces and grinding to the nonexistent beat of an old, tired tune. All of them are just hoping the drunk will finally pass out, and they can all go home.

Except, the new info is that it's the dancers who own the place, and they're dancing all the way to the bank.

Except, the new info is that it's the dancers who own the place, and they're dancing all the way to the bank.

Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm confused.

I mean, I get that the Js are making nice money now, but I think they also feel a lot of responsibility for keeping the show afloat in terms of crew jobs (or that's the story that's being given, anyway). Either way, they are keeping a certain number of people employed, and I like that they've both realized they can raise money for charity, and are.

Somewhere in the last couple weeks, I lost some of the sadness. It's a soap opera now -- a gritty, dark one, with magic and angels and ghosts -- but I've stopped expecting the old show back, I guess. And even though the mentioned flaws in the plot are there, I still love watching Jensen work. Well, both of them, but Jensen especially, when it comes to really emotional work.

Meaning, last night's show might not have made a lot of sense, but I loved seeing JA do dark! and angry!Dean.

What Pedowitz said was, paraphrased, "We'll (the CW) keep doing it as long as Jared and Jensen want to."

Which means to me that there's not a lot of concern about scripts conforming to early canon, or being sensitive to genderist, racist, feminist issues, or telling a story that has any social relevance, as long as 18-34 year old guys are watching for the beer-drinking, black-eyed badasses, the brawls, and the bros. The Js get a nice paycheck, and bonus not-to-sneeze-at money and fan adulation at cons, they keep the SPN cottage industry ticking, keeping the crew employed, maintain the comfortable working environment they like.

But those of us who've been patiently loyal, hoping for a return to storylines that were more than violence for its own sake, beer drinking and soft manporn, are doomed to be disappointed. There's no art there. There's no deeper meaning. It might scare away the target demo.

And this is all very subjective, and I'm personally very disillusioned and bitter, so take it with a whole ring of salt--we gotta clear this canon outta here, make room for some more watered down script retreads.

But those of us who've been patiently loyal, hoping for a return to storylines that were more than violence for its own sake, beer drinking and soft manporn, are doomed to be disappointed. There's no art there. There's no deeper meaning. It might scare away the target demo.

For me, with the original creator and writing team pretty much gone, I don't expect the stories to be the same as they once were. The idea itself has also morphed over time, and taken on its own life, due to both the actors and the fans -- and scaring away the target demographic is an actual issue, because this is a product, first and foremost, *not* pure art.

I also don't think it's constructive to consider yourself loyal, or patient. George R.R. Martin is a great example. He knows people are waiting for his books, but it doesn't make them easier or faster to write, and he's certainly not writing anything but the story he envisions. I think fans have to take their "reward" up front -- if you like the show, you watch it and enjoy it.

If you love old-school McDonald's fries, made with lard and sugar, in other words, you can keep buying the newer, healthier variety, but all that means is that McDonald's will keep making them -- not that they'll go back to the old recipe. You would have to stop buying the new fries (actually, lots and lots of people would have to stop) to convince them that customers really want the old version.

Art and commerce are always going to have an uneasy relationship, I think. And when it comes to CW shows, commerce is their only reason for being. If art shows up, that's great, it can grab a beer and a burger, but no one at the network is expecting it to come, or will put save a special seat for it.

Edited for bad grammar. Oops.

Well now I want beer and a burger and old school fries.

I don't think I liked anything about this episode. But I have liked other episodes this season so I'm not despairing of the show ever being my cup of tea again. Especially disappointed that Castiel didn't fight back. Badass Cas vs Mark of Cain Dean should be worth watching.

Thanks, Amy. I miss this kind of discussion. I miss show having enough substance to warrant this kind of discussion.

And yes, -t, when Cas with borrowed grace was able to take out demon Dean, then it seems a bit wrong when Cas' own grace wasn't stronger against MOC Dean. That confrontation would have been interesting to watch.

I don't know whether anyone here follows the Js offscreen, but Jared bailed on the Rome and the Australian con, pleading exhaustion. If you've been aware of his and Jensen's Always Keep Fighting fundraiser and awareness campaign, it's coming back to Jared manyfold. I'm a little unsettled by such openness, but if it helps people reach out when they need help, then that's a good thing.